3 ms·

It is surely tempting to reduce the issue of race relations in America to a binary debate between two reasonable viewpoints and argue for a compromise somewhere

by istjohn 11y ago

It is surely tempting to reduce the issue of race relations in America to a binary debate between two reasonable viewpoints and argue for a compromise somewhere in the middle, but that would be a mistake, here. It would be an instance of the logical fallacy Argument to Moderation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation). You frame the "race problem in America" as a problem "with the culture and values of both white people and black people" as if some intrinsic qualities of white and black cultures lead them to conflict. Does some cultural trait lead black people to subject themselves to ongoing discrimination in every step of the justice system. Does some value held sacred by white Americans lead them to segregate their children from those of blacks? The problem of race in America is not symmetrical. The relationship between whites and blacks is not like that of rival nations who might simply set aside their differences and compromise. Blacks are literally victims of hundreds of years of white oppression, oppression which continues to this day in subtle but pervasive forms. Witness, for example, the failure to indict Tamir Rice's killer, today. Systematic housing and banking discrimination throughout most of the last hundred years has held back blacks as white families accumulated wealth through the remarkably effective mechanism of home ownership. Relegated to inner-city ghettoes, black children today attend schools funded by property taxes levied on crumbling infrastructure, while their white counterparts enjoy educations funded by the largesse of wealthy suburbs. The wealth disparity means that black parents must spend more energy just to provide the essentials, and cannot provide the same guidance and resources to their children that their white counterparts take for granted. A justice system stacked against the poor further exasperates these economic injustices, and racist laws, policies, police, and administrators conspire to incarcerate black men far out of proportion to their culpability for crimes. As a result, black children too often lack the support of fathers altogether. Acknowledging these grievances to blacks does not do blacks any disservice, as if they are inherently lazy, shiftless people looking for an excuse to give up. But to deny these inequities is to deny struggling blacks the respect their efforts deserve. The deck is stacked against them, making every achievement that much more impressive. If we must reduce the issue to two sides, the other side is simply white indifference. It is not a malicious hateful racism, which exists but only in the margins of society. The other side of the race coin is just blissful white ignorance and indifference, such as showcased in this thread. What folly it is to self-righteously exhort the oppressed to stop making excuses and meet their oppressors half-way! The way forward is to overcome the unending indifference and bottomless ignorance of far too many whites. The impetus is on us as whites to make reparations, to make blacks whole to whatever extent possible, and to ensure, if nothing else, that blacks enjoy full equality of justice and opportunity going forward.

ufmace 11y ago
A perfect example of exactly what I was talking about, even including the standard laundry list of things that the other side has done wrong while whitewashing the problems in black culture. This way will never lead to peace. To see a little bit of the point, consider why modern Black African immigrants tend to do well for themselves. They may face some discrimination and disadvantages, and certainly aren't all wild success stories, but don't seem to have the widespread issues that American Blacks tend to have. What's going on there? If you follow the standard pattern of a partisan, you will talk about the institutional memories and issues ingrained in American Black society due to centuries of mistreatment. And on this, I agree 100% - those issues absolutely are there for exactly those reasons. But I will mostly likely disagree on the way forward. These issues were caused by White people, but they cannot be solved by any action White people might take. Reparations and affirmative action type things lead to entitlement and self-hatred in blacks and justified resentment in whites - the exact opposite of peace and mutual respect by all of both themselves and the other side. Whites absolutely have their own problems with racism that we must solve, but the problems in black culture can only be solved from within black culture. That's one of the problems with white culture itself - we believe that we are responsible for everything and are capable of fixing anything by our own direct actions. This one isn't our problem and we, as white people, can't fix it. We can show them the way, but they must take the steps of their own free will.
- istjohn 11y ago
  You say that "these issues were caused by White people, but they cannot be solved by any action White people might take." But then you admit that whites continue to "have their own problems with racism that we must solve." At the least, wouldn't ending that white racism help blacks going forward? Your claim that reparations and affirmative action lead to entitlement and self-hatred in blacks is unsubstantiated armchair psychology that, surely you'll agree, would sound awfully convenient -- not to mention condescending -- to an aggrieved black. The follow on assertion that it would also lead to JUSTIFIED resentment in whites betrays your inability or refusal to see that blacks have suffered concrete, economic damages for which justice requires reparations. Any resulting resentment from whites is simply sour grapes. Your unsubstantiated claims that any efforts by whites to unring the bell of hundreds of years of slavery and discrimination will only aggravate difficulties for blacks is not the get out of jail free card you want it to be. No, perhaps the bell cannot be unrung, but that does not obviate the moral obligation to make blacks whole in whatever ways we can. The truth is that the magnitude of the injustice is gigantic and far beyond the ability of whites to redress in full, but it does not follow that we should do nothing. There are many reasonable steps we can take to redress black grievances. For one, we could fix the enormous discrepancy in the quality of public education received by black and white children. We could address the huge underfunding of public defenders that tips the scales of justice in favor of anyone with the resources to hire a private attorney. It is not even necessary to resort to explicitly racial reparations like affirmative action. A huge amount of good can be accomplished simply by addressing poverty since it has been one of the primary consequences of white prejudice. If anyone cannot imagine reparations that would move blacks in America forward beyond the racial divisions of our past, it is for lack of imagination or effort. The true obstacle is UNJUSTIFIED white resentment that reparations might engender, which is why some black thinkers have suggested that black inequality be addressed by tackling inequality writ large. Suggesting that whites can do nothing is sleight of hand that shifts responsibility for the black plight from white racism to an implied black shiftlessness. It is victim blaming, simply put.

by istjohn 11y ago

ufmace 11y ago

A perfect example of exactly what I was talking about, even including the standard laundry list of things that the other side has done wrong while whitewashing the problems in black culture. This way will never lead to peace. To see a little bit of the point, consider why modern Black African immigrants tend to do well for themselves. They may face some discrimination and disadvantages, and certainly aren't all wild success stories, but don't seem to have the widespread issues that American Blacks tend to have. What's going on there? If you follow the standard pattern of a partisan, you will talk about the institutional memories and issues ingrained in American Black society due to centuries of mistreatment. And on this, I agree 100% - those issues absolutely are there for exactly those reasons. But I will mostly likely disagree on the way forward. These issues were caused by White people, but they cannot be solved by any action White people might take. Reparations and affirmative action type things lead to entitlement and self-hatred in blacks and justified resentment in whites - the exact opposite of peace and mutual respect by all of both themselves and the other side. Whites absolutely have their own problems with racism that we must solve, but the problems in black culture can only be solved from within black culture. That's one of the problems with white culture itself - we believe that we are responsible for everything and are capable of fixing anything by our own direct actions. This one isn't our problem and we, as white people, can't fix it. We can show them the way, but they must take the steps of their own free will.

istjohn 11y ago
You say that "these issues were caused by White people, but they cannot be solved by any action White people might take." But then you admit that whites continue to "have their own problems with racism that we must solve." At the least, wouldn't ending that white racism help blacks going forward? Your claim that reparations and affirmative action lead to entitlement and self-hatred in blacks is unsubstantiated armchair psychology that, surely you'll agree, would sound awfully convenient -- not to mention condescending -- to an aggrieved black. The follow on assertion that it would also lead to JUSTIFIED resentment in whites betrays your inability or refusal to see that blacks have suffered concrete, economic damages for which justice requires reparations. Any resulting resentment from whites is simply sour grapes. Your unsubstantiated claims that any efforts by whites to unring the bell of hundreds of years of slavery and discrimination will only aggravate difficulties for blacks is not the get out of jail free card you want it to be. No, perhaps the bell cannot be unrung, but that does not obviate the moral obligation to make blacks whole in whatever ways we can. The truth is that the magnitude of the injustice is gigantic and far beyond the ability of whites to redress in full, but it does not follow that we should do nothing. There are many reasonable steps we can take to redress black grievances. For one, we could fix the enormous discrepancy in the quality of public education received by black and white children. We could address the huge underfunding of public defenders that tips the scales of justice in favor of anyone with the resources to hire a private attorney. It is not even necessary to resort to explicitly racial reparations like affirmative action. A huge amount of good can be accomplished simply by addressing poverty since it has been one of the primary consequences of white prejudice. If anyone cannot imagine reparations that would move blacks in America forward beyond the racial divisions of our past, it is for lack of imagination or effort. The true obstacle is UNJUSTIFIED white resentment that reparations might engender, which is why some black thinkers have suggested that black inequality be addressed by tackling inequality writ large. Suggesting that whites can do nothing is sleight of hand that shifts responsibility for the black plight from white racism to an implied black shiftlessness. It is victim blaming, simply put.