4 ms·

This logic is just dumbfounding. How do the people saying stuff like this explain the existence of things like vaccines?

by blhack 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago
What about vaccines? Those are quite easy to make, and are made using existing disease-causing viruses. We know the mechanism, it applies to the whole population, and it's relatively simple and cheap to produce. The logistics are not the same with cancer preventing drugs at all.
- dogma1138 11y ago
  Considering that there are no wide spread generic cancer prevention drugs how would you know?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    We already know that cancer is not caused by a virus (at least in the general case), so it can't be fixed in the same way as vaccines. And we've already been looking for cancer drugs for more than half a century to know that the logistics compared to vaccines are different. Let's put it this way: if they knew of a method to make cancer prevention drugs as easy and effective as vaccines, they'd have made them.
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      Nonsense there are multiple types of vaccines toxiod vaccines for example vaccinate you against toxic compounds such as snake bites. There is quite a bit of research into regressive therapeutic and preventative vaccines against cancer currently. A vaccine is a process which teaches your immune system to combat a certain condition whether it's caused by a bacteria, parasite, a virus or a toxin it doesn't matter. If you can teach your own immune system to combat cancer by either teaching it to attack certain markers, or by disabling the "stealth" mechanisms which many types of cancer use to fly under it's radar you've effectively created a vaccine. Also vaccination is one of the most logistically complicated processes in medicine they are extremely short lived require very precise refrigeration and proper administration is considerably more critical than most cancer treatments, 80-90% of the cost of vaccination programs in developed and developing countries alike go into logistics. For cancer treatments even the experimental highly specialized ones it's completely the opposite, and run of the mill treatments like chemotherapy are easily administered by medical technicians under almost any circumstances.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        >If you can teach your own immune system to combat cancer by either teaching it to attack certain markers, or by disabling the "stealth" mechanisms which many types of cancer use to fly under it's radar you've effectively created a vaccine. All of that is known, and they've been trying that for half a century with not much success (besides the occasional report for a "cancer vaccine"). What makes you think they don't know the logistics involved already? >Also vaccination is one of the most logistically complicated processes in medicine they are extremely short lived require very precise refrigeration and proper administration is considerably more critical than most cancer treatments, 80-90% of the cost of vaccination programs in developed and developing countries alike go into logistics. Not really relevant. Being short lived and requiring "precise refrigeration and proper administration", is not the same kind of problem as the research for cancer vaccines. The former is actually a solved problem, and something that even all third world countries are able to do just fine anyway...
        dogma1138 11y ago
        >All of that is known, and they've been trying that for half a century with not much success (besides the occasional report for a "cancer vaccine"). What makes you think they don't know the logistics involved already? No it hasn't tumor antigens are a fairly recent discovery, the epigenetics of cancer as well as it's relationship with the immune system are also quite new fields. MUC1 was only discovered in the mid 80's it's expression initially linked to cancer in the mid 90's since the mid to late 2000's where we actually started trialing this out and started developing immunologic therapeutic processes. If we are talking about cancer specific therapeutic vaccines then there are already several on the market some of which are classified as orphan drugs and can be sponsored most of them are currently only life prolonging treatments for cancers with no other treatment course. And again it's not like overall vaccination is a closed book there are only a handful of diseases we can effectively vaccinate against and those are ones which are immune system is pretty damn good in dealing with the begin with. I really don't understand your argument anymore because at this point you are arguing about the logistics of vaccinating against chickenpox vs developing new cancer treatments which is asinine. New research is done everyday doesn't matter if it's into vaccines for new viral diseases or cancer the logistics of the research are the same. And if you are talking about delivery logistic than cancer would win every blood day of the week.
  - salgernon 11y ago
    "Various strains of HPV, which spread through sexual contact, cause most cases of cervical cancer. Two cervical cancer vaccines have Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval in the U.S. — Gardasil, for girls and boys, and Cervarix, for girls only." http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/sexual-health/in-depth/cervical-cancer-vaccine/art-20047292
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      Those aren't vaccines against cancer, those are vaccines against the papilloma virus. Vaccines against HPV are quite commonly administered in Europe, Asia and many middle eastern countries but it's not a wide anti cancer vaccine. And if it was you do realize that you are only proving my point right?
      - frisco 11y ago
        Where do you think cancer comes from? Hint: all kinds of things, but some are caused by viruses. No one really cares about HPV other than the fact that it tends to cause cervical cancer, so I don't think it's cheating to call that a "cancer vaccine".
        dogma1138 11y ago
        I think you are missing the point read the entire thread I commented to to guy who said that vaccines have a completely different (and cheaper) logistical process which isn't correct. I know there are many causes for cancer, but there are also potential anti cancer (note anti cancer not cancer causes) vaccines as your body does develop cancer specific antigens. The problem is that your immune system is too slow to react that that tumors have specific mechanisms that are intended to evade it (colloquially known as tumor escape mechanisms), there are quite a few generic therapeutic cancer vaccines in development like Stimuvax and Imucin both targeting various antigen mechanisms like MUC1[0]. But again this is "proving my point" as the OP claimed there cancer treatment and vaccination isn't comparable, as there are no wide spread vaccines on the market atm but they are a very promising area of study it's not the case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUC1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUC1

This logic is just dumbfounding. How do the people saying stuff like this explain the existence of things like vaccines?

by blhack 11y ago

This logic is just dumbfounding. How do the people saying stuff like this explain the existence of things like vaccines?

coldtea 11y ago

What about vaccines? Those are quite easy to make, and are made using existing disease-causing viruses. We know the mechanism, it applies to the whole population, and it's relatively simple and cheap to produce. The logistics are not the same with cancer preventing drugs at all.

dogma1138 11y ago
Considering that there are no wide spread generic cancer prevention drugs how would you know?
- coldtea 11y ago
  We already know that cancer is not caused by a virus (at least in the general case), so it can't be fixed in the same way as vaccines. And we've already been looking for cancer drugs for more than half a century to know that the logistics compared to vaccines are different. Let's put it this way: if they knew of a method to make cancer prevention drugs as easy and effective as vaccines, they'd have made them.
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    Nonsense there are multiple types of vaccines toxiod vaccines for example vaccinate you against toxic compounds such as snake bites. There is quite a bit of research into regressive therapeutic and preventative vaccines against cancer currently. A vaccine is a process which teaches your immune system to combat a certain condition whether it's caused by a bacteria, parasite, a virus or a toxin it doesn't matter. If you can teach your own immune system to combat cancer by either teaching it to attack certain markers, or by disabling the "stealth" mechanisms which many types of cancer use to fly under it's radar you've effectively created a vaccine. Also vaccination is one of the most logistically complicated processes in medicine they are extremely short lived require very precise refrigeration and proper administration is considerably more critical than most cancer treatments, 80-90% of the cost of vaccination programs in developed and developing countries alike go into logistics. For cancer treatments even the experimental highly specialized ones it's completely the opposite, and run of the mill treatments like chemotherapy are easily administered by medical technicians under almost any circumstances.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >If you can teach your own immune system to combat cancer by either teaching it to attack certain markers, or by disabling the "stealth" mechanisms which many types of cancer use to fly under it's radar you've effectively created a vaccine. All of that is known, and they've been trying that for half a century with not much success (besides the occasional report for a "cancer vaccine"). What makes you think they don't know the logistics involved already? >Also vaccination is one of the most logistically complicated processes in medicine they are extremely short lived require very precise refrigeration and proper administration is considerably more critical than most cancer treatments, 80-90% of the cost of vaccination programs in developed and developing countries alike go into logistics. Not really relevant. Being short lived and requiring "precise refrigeration and proper administration", is not the same kind of problem as the research for cancer vaccines. The former is actually a solved problem, and something that even all third world countries are able to do just fine anyway...
      - dogma1138 11y ago
        >All of that is known, and they've been trying that for half a century with not much success (besides the occasional report for a "cancer vaccine"). What makes you think they don't know the logistics involved already? No it hasn't tumor antigens are a fairly recent discovery, the epigenetics of cancer as well as it's relationship with the immune system are also quite new fields. MUC1 was only discovered in the mid 80's it's expression initially linked to cancer in the mid 90's since the mid to late 2000's where we actually started trialing this out and started developing immunologic therapeutic processes. If we are talking about cancer specific therapeutic vaccines then there are already several on the market some of which are classified as orphan drugs and can be sponsored most of them are currently only life prolonging treatments for cancers with no other treatment course. And again it's not like overall vaccination is a closed book there are only a handful of diseases we can effectively vaccinate against and those are ones which are immune system is pretty damn good in dealing with the begin with. I really don't understand your argument anymore because at this point you are arguing about the logistics of vaccinating against chickenpox vs developing new cancer treatments which is asinine. New research is done everyday doesn't matter if it's into vaccines for new viral diseases or cancer the logistics of the research are the same. And if you are talking about delivery logistic than cancer would win every blood day of the week.
- salgernon 11y ago
  "Various strains of HPV, which spread through sexual contact, cause most cases of cervical cancer. Two cervical cancer vaccines have Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval in the U.S. — Gardasil, for girls and boys, and Cervarix, for girls only." http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/sexual-health/in-depth/cervical-cancer-vaccine/art-20047292
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    Those aren't vaccines against cancer, those are vaccines against the papilloma virus. Vaccines against HPV are quite commonly administered in Europe, Asia and many middle eastern countries but it's not a wide anti cancer vaccine. And if it was you do realize that you are only proving my point right?
    - frisco 11y ago
      Where do you think cancer comes from? Hint: all kinds of things, but some are caused by viruses. No one really cares about HPV other than the fact that it tends to cause cervical cancer, so I don't think it's cheating to call that a "cancer vaccine".
      - dogma1138 11y ago
        I think you are missing the point read the entire thread I commented to to guy who said that vaccines have a completely different (and cheaper) logistical process which isn't correct. I know there are many causes for cancer, but there are also potential anti cancer (note anti cancer not cancer causes) vaccines as your body does develop cancer specific antigens. The problem is that your immune system is too slow to react that that tumors have specific mechanisms that are intended to evade it (colloquially known as tumor escape mechanisms), there are quite a few generic therapeutic cancer vaccines in development like Stimuvax and Imucin both targeting various antigen mechanisms like MUC1[0]. But again this is "proving my point" as the OP claimed there cancer treatment and vaccination isn't comparable, as there are no wide spread vaccines on the market atm but they are a very promising area of study it's not the case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUC1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUC1