2 ms·

The US has welfare which covers the things you describe - this is excluded from the poverty measure. You could provide $1MM/year in in-kind benefits (servants,

The US has welfare which covers the things you describe - this is excluded from the poverty measure. You could provide $1MM/year in in-kind benefits (servants, an estate, you name it) but you wouldn't decrease poverty (as defined by the US govt) at all. I have lowered my personal consumption to US poverty levels (<$20k/year) while living in homeless shelter like conditions (minus the homeless people, aka youth hostels). In fact i enjoy it so much that I'm checking into one tonight; hello Singapore! The idea that poverty is not some absolute value is kind of crazy - if we solve all this kid's current problems but give other people flying cars and robots (maintaining his relative position), will he still be unable to finish school? Also, why do you bring up a highly non-representative example (a person working full time) to personify poverty? Why not choose a far more representative person, like someone not working at all or even seeking work?http://www.epi.org/publication/poor-people-work-a-majority-of-poor-people-who-can-work-do/ http://www.epi.org/publication/poor-people-work-a-majority-o... http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/a-profile-of-the-working-poor-2013.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/a-profile-of-the-working...

coldtea 11y ago
>The idea that poverty is not some absolute value is kind of crazy - if we solve all this kid's current problems but give other people flying cars and robots (maintaining his relative position), will he still be unable to finish school? Kind of crazy? That has been the idea for millennia, being poor has never been about specific, fixed in time, living conditions. Poor vs rich is a monetary worth issue, not a "does he have a cellphone" issue, and issues of worth are relative. It's the same "relative poorness" that's behind a guy making $15k a year considered poor in the US and frigging rich in Somalia. >if we solve all this kid's current problems but give other people flying cars and robots (maintaining his relative position), will he still be unable to finish school? No, he'll be able to finish school alright (and nobody argued against that). But he'll still be poor though compared to the people with flying cars and robots. And if success in that society is helped by having access to such things, he'll still be behind his peers that have that access. Same way that if a guy that cannot afford a car has been given a place to stay, he has solved his homelessness problem, but cannot as easily find a job since he only has access to nearby jobs that don't require commuting. >Also, why do you bring up a highly non-representative example (a person working full time) to personify poverty? Why not choose a far more representative person, like someone not working at all or even seeking work? The very title of the first article you linked to is: "A Majority of Poor People Who Can Work Do". As the article itself says, 44.3 percent of the "poor people" are "working full-time". That's why I brought up "a person working full time" to personify poverty. Sure, it's even worse for those who can't find a job, or can only find a part time job. But at least with a poor person working full time the standard BS arguments that one can say about an unemployed poor person ("he's just lazy etc") doesn't even register in the first place.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  So you think that because 30% of poor people work full time, your single mother working 2 jobs is representative? Um, OK. Note also how that source defines "eligible to work" to get that 44% number (by excluding students/age >64/disabled, many of whom could be working). The single mother working 2 jobs is not even representative of this narrowly defined "eligible to work" category.

coldtea 11y ago

>The idea that poverty is not some absolute value is kind of crazy - if we solve all this kid's current problems but give other people flying cars and robots (maintaining his relative position), will he still be unable to finish school? Kind of crazy? That has been the idea for millennia, being poor has never been about specific, fixed in time, living conditions. Poor vs rich is a monetary worth issue, not a "does he have a cellphone" issue, and issues of worth are relative. It's the same "relative poorness" that's behind a guy making $15k a year considered poor in the US and frigging rich in Somalia. >if we solve all this kid's current problems but give other people flying cars and robots (maintaining his relative position), will he still be unable to finish school? No, he'll be able to finish school alright (and nobody argued against that). But he'll still be poor though compared to the people with flying cars and robots. And if success in that society is helped by having access to such things, he'll still be behind his peers that have that access. Same way that if a guy that cannot afford a car has been given a place to stay, he has solved his homelessness problem, but cannot as easily find a job since he only has access to nearby jobs that don't require commuting. >Also, why do you bring up a highly non-representative example (a person working full time) to personify poverty? Why not choose a far more representative person, like someone not working at all or even seeking work? The very title of the first article you linked to is: "A Majority of Poor People Who Can Work Do". As the article itself says, 44.3 percent of the "poor people" are "working full-time". That's why I brought up "a person working full time" to personify poverty. Sure, it's even worse for those who can't find a job, or can only find a part time job. But at least with a poor person working full time the standard BS arguments that one can say about an unemployed poor person ("he's just lazy etc") doesn't even register in the first place.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
So you think that because 30% of poor people work full time, your single mother working 2 jobs is representative? Um, OK. Note also how that source defines "eligible to work" to get that 44% number (by excluding students/age >64/disabled, many of whom could be working). The single mother working 2 jobs is not even representative of this narrowly defined "eligible to work" category.