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There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came t

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the US doesn't care about staying atop of the technology sector. Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers; there is a minimum wage requirement that has to be satisfied by the company applying for the H1B. So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room (which have H1B applications with salaries posted) or online and lodge a complaint with the state department of labor rather than posting bigoted comments? 2. Candidates hired by "staffing" companies: Blanket applications made by these "staffing" companies which may or may not have actual jobs. These are the applications that need to be stopped/scrutinized by USCIS (they have tightened this during the recession 2008-2010). It's arguable there is a genuine requirement for staffing companies, but these need to be scrutinized thoroughly.

vadym909 11y ago
comparison of the salaries and numbers of h1b visas of the 'genuine' vs 'staffing'. Last year the top 2 staffing cos - Infosys and TCS got 40,000 visas (2/3rds of the quota) at an average salary between $60-80K. The top 2 R&D cos- Microsoft and Google got 9,000 visas (14% of quota) at an average salary of $125K. Pretty easy to tell what is genuine. http://www.oncontracting.com/article/how-the-us-can-reduce-h1b-visa-abuse.html http://www.oncontracting.com/article/how-the-us-can-reduce-h...
fiatmoney 11y ago
There is a separate "superstar" visa. The O-1 visa is available to "individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics". The claimed point of H1B is to benefit Americans and the American economy by filling positions which have a temporary shortage, in a way that does not drive down wages. Of course that's not even close to how it works in practice.
- discardorama 11y ago
  O-1 is for people with a demonstrated extraordinary ability. When they came over, Nadella, Pichai, Khosla, etc. were just students fresh out of college.
- serge2k 11y ago
  What evidence would you have had to bring Nadella over as an O-1? 20 years later sure, he's the CEO of Microsoft.
- ashwinaj 11y ago
  The O-1 visa is extremely difficult to obtain especially in countries which do not have R&D capacity comparable to the US to facilitate the process of obtaining this visa. What about people who develop these "superstar" skills later in life? It's a moot point on whether H1B helps or hurts the US economy. It's up to the US govt. and eventually the voters to decide what strategies should be adopted in keeping the US at the top the technology sector.
- tn13 11y ago
  Most superstars become superstars after coming to USA. O1 is for those who are already superstars in other countries. Countries like India do not offer the same freedom that US does and hence a lot many potential superstars can not enter USA.
pekk 11y ago
You seem to think that everyone hired by a company rather than a staffing agency under H1B is in category 1, but it isn't so. I won't bother to name names
- ashwinaj 11y ago
  You didn't see this part of my comment: > "It's arguable there is a genuine requirement for staffing companies, but these need to be scrutinized thoroughly."
protomyth 11y ago
The bill proposed in the last paragraph would take a pretty big hammer to #2. I doubt it will actually pass (or even be voted on), but I think I will watch it to see what actually happens and who does what.
nickbauman 11y ago
I still believe it's a wage suppression strategy. Here's why: I used to work for a major multinational based in Europe, but I lived here in the US. Many of the people I worked with were not US citizens, but lived and worked here on an E-1 (the European version of the H-1b Visa). They were essentially captive workers who were at the mercy of the whims of management; management that was largely absent from the day-to-day realities of how things worked in the US. I couldn't prove it completely but based on the compensation rates of a few I knew, I also felt certain they were almost categorically paid below market.
- ashwinaj 11y ago
  > "who were at the mercy of the whims of management" With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere. I don't know about the E-1 visa. Again, if you feel they were being paid below the market rate, you can check up the bulletin board to make sure.
  - jleader 11y ago
    My understanding (from H1B coworkers and HR managers in previous jobs) was that the H1B is transferable to another company IF the other company agrees to sponsor it, and there's a fair amount of paperwork, hassle, and uncertainty to effect the transfer. That has to translate into at least a small salary discrepancy between H1B holders and permanent-resident employees.
    - serge2k 11y ago
      > That has to translate into at least a small salary discrepancy between H1B holders and permanent-resident employees. or it just gets accepted as cost of doing business with this person. Which is entirely reasonable (you spend a couple thousand to get everything transferred, not that much long run). isn't the problem that if an h1-b worker gets fired they are screwed (have to leave)? I know with a TN that's the case and it sucks.
  - tn13 11y ago
latj 11y ago
I'm not who you are addressing exactly, but it is not "bigoted" to make the claim that bringing more workers into a workforce will drive salaries down.
- ashwinaj 11y ago
  I am replying to those who make claims that H1B workers are being paid below market rate, hence driving down salaries. There is a minimum wage requirement as I mentioned which is approved by the state department of labor. Again, these "driving down wages" doesn't hold water when the H1B salaries are public information.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    How does that minimum wage compare to free market resident wages, by percentile? Is it median? 25th? Lower? Higher?
  - latj 11y ago
    Ok, we've heard your proposition. Now make some arguments. Now show some evidence. For example, mean pay for a software developer in state of California is $119,970 according to Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]. What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay? My instinct is that you are correct and H1B visas are not driving down salaries- but thats just a guess, I have no idea. But your arguments so far are "dont be a bigot" and "its all public information". If its public information, have you seen it? If so, share it with us. If not, how are you sure you are correct? If you are just venting, then vent away my friend. Otherwise, it is ineffective to fight bigotry by telling people they are bigots. Share data from a trusted source, give sound analysis, and hope for the best. Good luck. 1. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm 2. I would have dug this up myself but its actually a bit of work to compile as a meaningful look at this issue requires looking at many geographical areas and professions.
    - ashwinaj 11y ago
      > "What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay?" How many years of experience (0,5,10,15,20?)? What is the education level required (PhD vs bachelors/masters)? It's not as simple as "H1B software developer in California" nor are the salaries. They vary between companies (eg., Netflix pays more than Google) In any case, here you go: http://h1bdata.info/ http://h1bdata.info/ You can check what your H1B colleagues make based on their job title. Edit: To x0x0, I'm not going to parse out data for each and every company, I have a day job you see :) I've worked for four companies (public and private), and I see that the wages are comparable to local workers (of those who chose to share their wages) and the established market rate by the state dept. of labor for the said job title. Somewhat anecdotal? Yes. It is definitely better than a blanket "H1B drives down wages".
staticint 11y ago
Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers... So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another company. Then the company losing the employee has to pay more to poach from somewhere else, and so on, until eventually everyone who is suitable for such a position is making more. The fact that H1Bs are paid what the locals are paid is exactly the issue people have when they talk about wage suppression. It is in much the same vein as when Apple/Google/et al. agreed to not steal each others employees. It is not like those employees were exactly hurting for compensation, but they theoretically could have made more without that treaty between companies.
- rcheu 11y ago
  Yes, this will lower wages, but now there's more people employed and more work done in the US.
- rtpg 11y ago
  The company leash is by far the biggest wage suppressor. Remove that, and of course the visa holders will get paid the "right" amount, because if they're not they should be able to switch jobs easily. For reference, this is how it works in Japan, for example. A company can sponsor your visa (which is basically some paperwork). But you get a fixed period in which you can work, and you can change companies without having to do anything except signal a company change to the immigration office. Very low friction
  - henrikm85 11y ago
    I switched jobs on H1B recently and I don't see what you think the leash is. The process takes about two weeks and as far as I can tell there is no realistic risk of losing the H1B even if your (about to be) former employer fires you and the new company butchers the transfer [1]. As a side-note, me changing jobs fairly dramatically increased my salary. I could presumably (I did not negotiate with old employer but a colleague did when he was about to leave) have gotten the same salary at my old place just by showing the new offer. I don't really see where the difference to a citizen is in this whole exercise. ([1] this is so because even if in the worst case you were kicked out of the country you could still reclaim the remaining time on the H1B so the worst case is still limited and I know of zero such cases.)
tn13 11y ago
I have a simple solution. Let H1Bs enter based on the salary their employee is paying them than anything else. Forget about degree, job description etc. Also this is how the bidding system would work. 1. Let salaries be classified in tiers. 100K 110K 120K etc. These tiers are classified and published only after an year. 2. Let companies bid for every employee based on how valuable the employee is. say a company bids for X at $120K p.a. 2. Sort the bids in descending level. Each company will then have to pay their employee a salary that is at least as much as the lowest salary in that tier.
coliveira 11y ago
The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "talented" workers (a subjetive term that makes little sense). In a country that valued their citizens, these companies would have to pay higher salaries as the demand increased, and as a result more people would chose this career path, thereby reaching a market equilibrium. If these companies moved jobs overseas, they would be liable for more taxes to offset the job losses, so they would be discouraged to do so. The fact that nobody talks about these simple strategies just shows that companies have done a great job to preach their message to the US government and workers.
- NhanH 11y ago
  > The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. The "natural law of supply and demand", specifically, the supply side doesn't magically stop at the border of a country. If anything, protectionism is against the free market ideal. Labor is just another resources like any other, and the extreme version of free market would include free immigration. Yes, a libertarian free market only society might not be in anyone benefits, and any regulation to limit them might have some merit. But we should really call a spade a spade.
  - coliveira 11y ago
    That's BS, because this is not a free trade world. The US invests billions of dollars in technology that directly benefits American companies, not French companies, for example. American companies and entire industries (such as agriculture) receive tax breaks that are not available in other parts of the world. Then why only workers have to carry the burden of increased job competition from free trade? Free trade laws don't appear out of thin ether either, it is companies that lobby politicians to create such laws -- while at the same time claiming to the public that they are inevitable. This is a distorted ideology that needs to be opposed, not just observed as if it were good or inevitable.
secondtimeuse 11y ago
Please This is a false dichotomy and typically parroted by upper middle class indians who had enough resources to pay for graduate school in USA. The system could use tweaks and points to grade applications but you are presentin a very naive a class based view of the situation. You might feel that you could convince immigration hardliners by this argument but in reality most are motivated by ideology rather than rationality. At the same time you will alienate other indians. With lotteries, 7+ year racist country based quotas and 12 Million undocumented immigrants it's a system which long due for a comprehensive reform don't waste time defending it.
- ashwinaj 11y ago
  Sorry? How is scrutinizing applications for employment a naive view of the situation? Isn't it obvious that if an application is not genuine it should be cancelled (eg., working for a "client", where the "client" is a shell company)? I'm not trying to convince anyone and I personally don't care what other Indians (as I'm Indian) think about my opinion. I only represent my opinion not theirs (and they are free to have their own and disagree with mine). On your immigration comment, if you are an American citizen you have the right to claim what you say about the immigration situation in the US. As far as I am concerned, I have no say in the immigration debate as an H1B worker. All I am concerned about is to work on challenging problems and advance my career, that's it. I am not using the so called H1B "restrictions" as an excuse for all ills as a potential immigrant.
  - secondtimeuse 11y ago
    Do I get extra points regarding my opinion if I am native American, what if my ancestors were aboard Mayflower or were grudgingly accepted as Irish or if they were slaves. United States has a complex racial history which includes laws such the Chinese Exclusion act (something that lead Supreme Court to affirm birthright citizenship). To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an informed opinion based on moral analysis is ridiculous. What next according to your logic then any black man should not have considered himself to be an equal or should have offered an opinion until civil rights were changed. Or no one should have complained about Hitler. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound. United States is a unique country of immigrants with a chequeed past. With an argument like this no doubt you are parroting stupidity. Wake up Ashwin, life is not just about advancin career.

vadym909 11y ago

comparison of the salaries and numbers of h1b visas of the 'genuine' vs 'staffing'. Last year the top 2 staffing cos - Infosys and TCS got 40,000 visas (2/3rds of the quota) at an average salary between $60-80K. The top 2 R&D cos- Microsoft and Google got 9,000 visas (14% of quota) at an average salary of $125K. Pretty easy to tell what is genuine. http://www.oncontracting.com/article/how-the-us-can-reduce-h1b-visa-abuse.html http://www.oncontracting.com/article/how-the-us-can-reduce-h...

fiatmoney 11y ago

There is a separate "superstar" visa. The O-1 visa is available to "individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics". The claimed point of H1B is to benefit Americans and the American economy by filling positions which have a temporary shortage, in a way that does not drive down wages. Of course that's not even close to how it works in practice.

discardorama 11y ago
O-1 is for people with a demonstrated extraordinary ability. When they came over, Nadella, Pichai, Khosla, etc. were just students fresh out of college.
serge2k 11y ago
What evidence would you have had to bring Nadella over as an O-1? 20 years later sure, he's the CEO of Microsoft.
ashwinaj 11y ago
The O-1 visa is extremely difficult to obtain especially in countries which do not have R&D capacity comparable to the US to facilitate the process of obtaining this visa. What about people who develop these "superstar" skills later in life? It's a moot point on whether H1B helps or hurts the US economy. It's up to the US govt. and eventually the voters to decide what strategies should be adopted in keeping the US at the top the technology sector.
tn13 11y ago
Most superstars become superstars after coming to USA. O1 is for those who are already superstars in other countries. Countries like India do not offer the same freedom that US does and hence a lot many potential superstars can not enter USA.

pekk 11y ago

You seem to think that everyone hired by a company rather than a staffing agency under H1B is in category 1, but it isn't so. I won't bother to name names

ashwinaj 11y ago
You didn't see this part of my comment: > "It's arguable there is a genuine requirement for staffing companies, but these need to be scrutinized thoroughly."

protomyth 11y ago

The bill proposed in the last paragraph would take a pretty big hammer to #2. I doubt it will actually pass (or even be voted on), but I think I will watch it to see what actually happens and who does what.

nickbauman 11y ago

I still believe it's a wage suppression strategy. Here's why: I used to work for a major multinational based in Europe, but I lived here in the US. Many of the people I worked with were not US citizens, but lived and worked here on an E-1 (the European version of the H-1b Visa). They were essentially captive workers who were at the mercy of the whims of management; management that was largely absent from the day-to-day realities of how things worked in the US. I couldn't prove it completely but based on the compensation rates of a few I knew, I also felt certain they were almost categorically paid below market.

ashwinaj 11y ago
> "who were at the mercy of the whims of management" With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere. I don't know about the E-1 visa. Again, if you feel they were being paid below the market rate, you can check up the bulletin board to make sure.
- jleader 11y ago
  My understanding (from H1B coworkers and HR managers in previous jobs) was that the H1B is transferable to another company IF the other company agrees to sponsor it, and there's a fair amount of paperwork, hassle, and uncertainty to effect the transfer. That has to translate into at least a small salary discrepancy between H1B holders and permanent-resident employees.
  - serge2k 11y ago
    > That has to translate into at least a small salary discrepancy between H1B holders and permanent-resident employees. or it just gets accepted as cost of doing business with this person. Which is entirely reasonable (you spend a couple thousand to get everything transferred, not that much long run). isn't the problem that if an h1-b worker gets fired they are screwed (have to leave)? I know with a TN that's the case and it sucks.
- tn13 11y ago

latj 11y ago

I'm not who you are addressing exactly, but it is not "bigoted" to make the claim that bringing more workers into a workforce will drive salaries down.

ashwinaj 11y ago
I am replying to those who make claims that H1B workers are being paid below market rate, hence driving down salaries. There is a minimum wage requirement as I mentioned which is approved by the state department of labor. Again, these "driving down wages" doesn't hold water when the H1B salaries are public information.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  How does that minimum wage compare to free market resident wages, by percentile? Is it median? 25th? Lower? Higher?
- latj 11y ago
  Ok, we've heard your proposition. Now make some arguments. Now show some evidence. For example, mean pay for a software developer in state of California is $119,970 according to Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]. What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay? My instinct is that you are correct and H1B visas are not driving down salaries- but thats just a guess, I have no idea. But your arguments so far are "dont be a bigot" and "its all public information". If its public information, have you seen it? If so, share it with us. If not, how are you sure you are correct? If you are just venting, then vent away my friend. Otherwise, it is ineffective to fight bigotry by telling people they are bigots. Share data from a trusted source, give sound analysis, and hope for the best. Good luck. 1. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm 2. I would have dug this up myself but its actually a bit of work to compile as a meaningful look at this issue requires looking at many geographical areas and professions.
  - ashwinaj 11y ago
    > "What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay?" How many years of experience (0,5,10,15,20?)? What is the education level required (PhD vs bachelors/masters)? It's not as simple as "H1B software developer in California" nor are the salaries. They vary between companies (eg., Netflix pays more than Google) In any case, here you go: http://h1bdata.info/ http://h1bdata.info/ You can check what your H1B colleagues make based on their job title. Edit: To x0x0, I'm not going to parse out data for each and every company, I have a day job you see :) I've worked for four companies (public and private), and I see that the wages are comparable to local workers (of those who chose to share their wages) and the established market rate by the state dept. of labor for the said job title. Somewhat anecdotal? Yes. It is definitely better than a blanket "H1B drives down wages".

staticint 11y ago

Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers... So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another company. Then the company losing the employee has to pay more to poach from somewhere else, and so on, until eventually everyone who is suitable for such a position is making more. The fact that H1Bs are paid what the locals are paid is exactly the issue people have when they talk about wage suppression. It is in much the same vein as when Apple/Google/et al. agreed to not steal each others employees. It is not like those employees were exactly hurting for compensation, but they theoretically could have made more without that treaty between companies.

rcheu 11y ago
Yes, this will lower wages, but now there's more people employed and more work done in the US.
rtpg 11y ago
The company leash is by far the biggest wage suppressor. Remove that, and of course the visa holders will get paid the "right" amount, because if they're not they should be able to switch jobs easily. For reference, this is how it works in Japan, for example. A company can sponsor your visa (which is basically some paperwork). But you get a fixed period in which you can work, and you can change companies without having to do anything except signal a company change to the immigration office. Very low friction
- henrikm85 11y ago
  I switched jobs on H1B recently and I don't see what you think the leash is. The process takes about two weeks and as far as I can tell there is no realistic risk of losing the H1B even if your (about to be) former employer fires you and the new company butchers the transfer [1]. As a side-note, me changing jobs fairly dramatically increased my salary. I could presumably (I did not negotiate with old employer but a colleague did when he was about to leave) have gotten the same salary at my old place just by showing the new offer. I don't really see where the difference to a citizen is in this whole exercise. ([1] this is so because even if in the worst case you were kicked out of the country you could still reclaim the remaining time on the H1B so the worst case is still limited and I know of zero such cases.)

tn13 11y ago

I have a simple solution. Let H1Bs enter based on the salary their employee is paying them than anything else. Forget about degree, job description etc. Also this is how the bidding system would work. 1. Let salaries be classified in tiers. 100K 110K 120K etc. These tiers are classified and published only after an year. 2. Let companies bid for every employee based on how valuable the employee is. say a company bids for X at $120K p.a. 2. Sort the bids in descending level. Each company will then have to pay their employee a salary that is at least as much as the lowest salary in that tier.

coliveira 11y ago

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "talented" workers (a subjetive term that makes little sense). In a country that valued their citizens, these companies would have to pay higher salaries as the demand increased, and as a result more people would chose this career path, thereby reaching a market equilibrium. If these companies moved jobs overseas, they would be liable for more taxes to offset the job losses, so they would be discouraged to do so. The fact that nobody talks about these simple strategies just shows that companies have done a great job to preach their message to the US government and workers.

NhanH 11y ago
> The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. The "natural law of supply and demand", specifically, the supply side doesn't magically stop at the border of a country. If anything, protectionism is against the free market ideal. Labor is just another resources like any other, and the extreme version of free market would include free immigration. Yes, a libertarian free market only society might not be in anyone benefits, and any regulation to limit them might have some merit. But we should really call a spade a spade.
- coliveira 11y ago
  That's BS, because this is not a free trade world. The US invests billions of dollars in technology that directly benefits American companies, not French companies, for example. American companies and entire industries (such as agriculture) receive tax breaks that are not available in other parts of the world. Then why only workers have to carry the burden of increased job competition from free trade? Free trade laws don't appear out of thin ether either, it is companies that lobby politicians to create such laws -- while at the same time claiming to the public that they are inevitable. This is a distorted ideology that needs to be opposed, not just observed as if it were good or inevitable.

secondtimeuse 11y ago

Please This is a false dichotomy and typically parroted by upper middle class indians who had enough resources to pay for graduate school in USA. The system could use tweaks and points to grade applications but you are presentin a very naive a class based view of the situation. You might feel that you could convince immigration hardliners by this argument but in reality most are motivated by ideology rather than rationality. At the same time you will alienate other indians. With lotteries, 7+ year racist country based quotas and 12 Million undocumented immigrants it's a system which long due for a comprehensive reform don't waste time defending it.

ashwinaj 11y ago
Sorry? How is scrutinizing applications for employment a naive view of the situation? Isn't it obvious that if an application is not genuine it should be cancelled (eg., working for a "client", where the "client" is a shell company)? I'm not trying to convince anyone and I personally don't care what other Indians (as I'm Indian) think about my opinion. I only represent my opinion not theirs (and they are free to have their own and disagree with mine). On your immigration comment, if you are an American citizen you have the right to claim what you say about the immigration situation in the US. As far as I am concerned, I have no say in the immigration debate as an H1B worker. All I am concerned about is to work on challenging problems and advance my career, that's it. I am not using the so called H1B "restrictions" as an excuse for all ills as a potential immigrant.
- secondtimeuse 11y ago
  Do I get extra points regarding my opinion if I am native American, what if my ancestors were aboard Mayflower or were grudgingly accepted as Irish or if they were slaves. United States has a complex racial history which includes laws such the Chinese Exclusion act (something that lead Supreme Court to affirm birthright citizenship). To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an informed opinion based on moral analysis is ridiculous. What next according to your logic then any black man should not have considered himself to be an equal or should have offered an opinion until civil rights were changed. Or no one should have complained about Hitler. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound. United States is a unique country of immigrants with a chequeed past. With an argument like this no doubt you are parroting stupidity. Wake up Ashwin, life is not just about advancin career.