8 ms·

Why poor kids don’t stay in college

46 points by Futurebot 11y ago

FussyZeus 11y ago
You take the most vulnerable elements of the population, entice them with grants promising a better future, then sell them expensive loans that can never be removed via bankruptcy, then sell them an education that increasingly is not a guarantee of any success whatsoever and then when things come up as they do in every life, we punish them even harder, oftentimes for life. Madness is what it is. Pure madness.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Indentured servitude is the term you are looking for [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    As much as I dislike hyperbolic sounding terms, there really is no better word for it.
- pdex 11y ago
  It pays off it you pick a major that trains you in a valuable skill, this is where the problem lies- far too many people are picking dumb majors, that's more the crux of the problem you illustrate: making bad decisions during a critical time of life (ex: majoring in Drama).
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    I think it's a little more insane that one day the person in question needs to ask permission from the teacher to go to the bathroom and then the next day they're required to make life altering decisions with little guidance under extreme pressure.
    - pdex 11y ago
      Why do you think picking a major is a "next day" decision? High school students have years to think about it, furthermore high school guidance counselors have career and salary guidebooks available to anyone who walks through the door.
asadm 11y ago
It's because they are in an unstable situation and that means their struggle has to be greater than those who are privileged. The ones who succeed, are usually more tolerant to stress and that is a major reason they complete their college.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >The ones who succeed, are usually more tolerant to stress and that is a major reason they complete their college. They are usually also the lighter cases (less unstable situations), with a least some parental support, and also the ones who got a few more lucky breaks. In the end, though, they ascribe it all to their "hard work" and ignore those things -- condemning those less fortunate. Mostly like privileged stable upper middle class students do.
  - ploxiln 11y ago
    yes, yes, we know, no one is responsible for anything that they do ...
    - meat_fist 11y ago
      No, but simply "working hard" guarantees nothing.
      - pdex 11y ago
        Yes, one also needs to be capable of making intelligent decisions for the future, majoring in Theater is not one of them (just an example).
        coldtea 11y ago
        Is it that hard to understand that a middle/upper middle class kid with two educated supporting parents, encouragement since it was small, a college fund, etc has it EASIER than a poor kid from the projects? And that this holds regardless of "hard work" and "intelligent decisions for the future"? E.g. even if both make the exact same good decisions, the poor kid has to work harder to overcome what it lacked in encouragement, financial ease to just study, parental support, the need to get a job to pay the rent even while at college, etc.
jonesb6 11y ago
Also consider these two personal observations: 1) The increase in college enrollment has exceeded the capacity of many in-state schools (a.k.a. the more affordable ones) and influenced many 18-year olds to enroll in out-of-state schools (a.k.a. the six figure ones). 2) From a very young age kids today are taught that college is a no-brainer, and the quality of the college they go to will deeply impact their future success. So do you pick that community college route which is affordable, or that six figure out of state school? Every part of this is a quagmire, and it's creating more and more frustration and outrage. I have no clue what the end result will be, but it won't be good.
- a3n 11y ago
  > do you pick that community college route which is affordable, or that six figure out of state school? In case anyone is seriously in this dilemma, take up to two years of CC for prelims etc, then transfer to university. $UNIVERSITY will be where you graduate from, not CC. You'll also have smaller class sizes and will probably get more out of your classes and teachers.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    Except for universities which have transfer agreements with the particular CCs (which are common for state-run universities and same-state-run CCs, less so otherwise), it can be more difficult to transfer from a CC to university than for a student out of high school to get into that university as a freshman -- many universities are less geared to transfer admission, and many CCs don't provide opportunities to stand out (especially when competing transfers at the same level may be from other universities, as well as CCs.) So, that strategy can work -- but it has limits.
    - a3n 11y ago
      Yes, everything has limits, and it would be better if you could afford all four years at university. When you can't, you have to think of alternatives. This is one of them.
    - 11y ago
littletimmy 11y ago
This wouldn't be so problematic if college (state and community) were free. By most estimations, the cost of making college free is around $60 billion, which is not that significant. Just force corporations to pay proper taxes, use that money to make college free, and you'll be doing wonders for this country's citizens. Alternatively, consider that the Iraq war expenditure could have paid for college in this country practically through the next century.
- ori_b 11y ago
  To play devil's advocate: > Just force corporations to pay proper taxes, Considering that the USA is one of the few countries that taxes on overseas profits, and has a higher rate of tax than many countries, what exactly are 'proper taxes'? And considering that many countries have eliminated or reduced the cost of university without raising taxes excessively, why is it impossible to do the same in the USA?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Not to mention that $60 billion sounds like a small part of the military budget, which is already 4-10 times the size of the next country, and mostly used to abuse other places instead of defense.
    - jedrek 11y ago
      The main roles of the US Armed Forces are currently the support of US business interests abroad, corporate subsidies for contractors and as a government jobs program.
  - cpursley 11y ago
    Exactly. The Corporations™ don't pay taxes; their customers do. Plenty of lower-tax nations are able to provide free or nearly free university, healthcare and other benefits. It's not a collection problem; it's a spending one.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Considering that the USA is one of the few countries that taxes on overseas profits, and has a higher rate of tax than many countries, what exactly are 'proper taxes'? The higher nominal corporate tax rate is misleading because of the structure of credits, deductions, etc.; the US collects a low level of corporate taxes compared to other developed countries (e.g., significantly below the OECD average.)
chubalub 11y ago
Maybe Tyrone just isn't college material, even with every advantage he would receive? Why lower standards? I am sure many college attendees have stories of fellow students who have no place in higher education. Trade schools are always an option. College is a scam. Hopefully we see some reform during the glorious presidency of Trump.
coldtea 11y ago
>There was a moment in his childhood, he recalls, when his parents lived together and the bills were being paid on time. But bad luck and a bad economy shook it all apart. One Thanksgiving, he says, his mother suffered eight strokes. A couple of months later his dad, a roofer, was badly injured in an accident. That this shortcut to poverty by medical bills can happen in a modern western society is appalling.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Shortcut? It's the express lane. My wife was in the ER for 4 hours for a bad asthma attack and it cost nearly two thousand bucks, and I'm told that's relatively cheap. We're STILL paying for it.
  - MajorLOL 11y ago
    I'm sympathetic to your expense... I would also like to remind you of the operating costs. Not only trained professionals on staff 24/7 standing by to serve your wife when she has an asthma attack. The equipment, tooling and infrastructure alone justifies a bill of $2,000. If you had said that you went into a walk in clinic I would expect a much lower service cost. You went into the same place that is perpetually prepared for a mass casualty scenario and received that level of service. Insurance has us so disconnected from healthcare service costs its easy to think everything should cost the same as the local mechanic or lawn care service.
    - FussyZeus 11y ago
      So if you go to a collision specialist with a flat tire, it should cost $26,000 right? Because they were prepared to bend your chassis into a straight line again, even though you didn't actually need that? My wife was in a bed for 3 of the 4 hours, seen by two nurses for maybe 1 of those hours total, and the doctor for barely 30 minutes while she took a large dose of her standard drug that we get over the counter for $20 a month. I'm not saying people shouldn't get paid, but two thousand dollars? And that's AFTER insurance, by the way.
thisisrobv 11y ago
It's hard to read stories like this. It's so clear that the diversity issues in the tech industry are in part a signal of a much larger issue in our nation. Under represented minorities have such a tough time getting a decent education let alone one in computer science. That said, I'm hopeful that the industry that I'm a part of can play a large role in fixing this.
- mreiland 11y ago
  you mean people in poverty regardless of ethnicity...
- pdex 11y ago
  I went through far worse getting myself through college and yet I made it. Life isn't supposed to be easy.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
vinceguidry 11y ago
I think the national obsession with higher education will reach a breaking point eventually. It's just too expensive, the benefits are uncertain for lower-strata matriculants, and expecting students to pay the costs themselves is unreasonable. We're going to have to learn to live with a tiered system where the less well-off go to trade schools and well-to-do parents can pay for their kid's general education. The demand is there, the trades have been hemorrhaging talent for years, universities have been monopolizing the "what to do with kids after they graduate high school" market for way too long, and for-profit colleges are a bust. The answer is pay-as-you-go trade school, but it's going to take the nation awhile to warm to the idea. As one of my favorite sayings puts it, America is a nation of temporarily-embarrassed millionaires. We need to change our collective belief that a university education is every American's right. It's simply unmanageable. Perhaps in a few hundred years we'll have amassed enough national wealth to be able to afford the institutional and social investment, right now it's a pipe dream. I did not graduate college. I looked at the cost-benefit structure and decided I'd be better off making my own future as an autodidact. It worked for me, but I do not expect my children to follow in my footsteps, I am prepared to bear the entire cost of my children's education.
- rayiner 11y ago
  I don't know why your track has to be decided based on how much money your parents have. In Germany, your track is based on grades and tests. And you can still get a meaningful white collar job without going to university. Very few people need more than a high school education plus on the job education and training. Maybe just doctors, engineers, and scientists. It's just that in the U.S. we use education as a red herring to divert attention away from the real issues. E.g. It's unpleasant to talk about the total breakdown in family structure in inner cities? Let's shift the discussion to forcing these kids into mostly useless college education, as if people in other developed countries aren't working good paying respectable jobs after leaving school at 16.
  - superuser2 11y ago
    >In Germany, your track is based on grades and tests Germany is also not militantly opposed to the idea of public investment in public welfare. Your track has to be decided based on how much money your parents have because a majority of American voters don't want their money going to help other people's children.
cpursley 11y ago
> A theater major Sigh I'm all for increasing access to education, but these types of majors with 0.02% chance of job placement in their field are a major disservice. Especially so for first-generation college students, and even more so when non-dischargeable debt is involved.
- pdex 11y ago
  I wonder who taught that person that it's sane or financially responsible to pick a major like that and harbor any expectation of getting out of poverty.
  - mgkimsal 11y ago
    Large numbers of people who all chanted "do what you love and the money will follow". Which... while not necessarily wrong, doesn't mean that enough money will follow to pay off massive amounts of higher-ed debt. But that part of the equation doesn't get trotted out much...
    - pdex 11y ago
      Oh yes, it's a popular anthem and It's fine if you have no expectation of climbing the socioeconomic ladder. Before picking a major it's common sense to discover salary and job market information before committing to one, it's a no-brainer. This info is free, available from a variety of sources and easy to get: no excuses! Life isn't a feel-good circle jerk where people throw money your way simply out of one's desire to be happy, I'm sure the parents of college kids featured in the article are acutely aware of that, so is it stupidity or delusion that causes them to perpetuate the myth?
rokhayakebe 11y ago
Time: When you are poor 4 years is "seemingly" an eternity. The greatest gift money gives is the ability to think long term.

46 points by Futurebot 11y ago

You take the most vulnerable elements of the population, entice them with grants promising a better future, then sell them expensive loans that can never be removed via bankruptcy, then sell them an education that increasingly is not a guarantee of any success whatsoever and then when things come up as they do in every life, we punish them even harder, oftentimes for life. Madness is what it is. Pure madness.

danieltillett 11y ago
Indentured servitude is the term you are looking for [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  As much as I dislike hyperbolic sounding terms, there really is no better word for it.
pdex 11y ago
It pays off it you pick a major that trains you in a valuable skill, this is where the problem lies- far too many people are picking dumb majors, that's more the crux of the problem you illustrate: making bad decisions during a critical time of life (ex: majoring in Drama).
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  I think it's a little more insane that one day the person in question needs to ask permission from the teacher to go to the bathroom and then the next day they're required to make life altering decisions with little guidance under extreme pressure.
  - pdex 11y ago
    Why do you think picking a major is a "next day" decision? High school students have years to think about it, furthermore high school guidance counselors have career and salary guidebooks available to anyone who walks through the door.

asadm 11y ago

It's because they are in an unstable situation and that means their struggle has to be greater than those who are privileged. The ones who succeed, are usually more tolerant to stress and that is a major reason they complete their college.

coldtea 11y ago
>The ones who succeed, are usually more tolerant to stress and that is a major reason they complete their college. They are usually also the lighter cases (less unstable situations), with a least some parental support, and also the ones who got a few more lucky breaks. In the end, though, they ascribe it all to their "hard work" and ignore those things -- condemning those less fortunate. Mostly like privileged stable upper middle class students do.
- ploxiln 11y ago
  yes, yes, we know, no one is responsible for anything that they do ...
  - meat_fist 11y ago
    No, but simply "working hard" guarantees nothing.
    - pdex 11y ago
      Yes, one also needs to be capable of making intelligent decisions for the future, majoring in Theater is not one of them (just an example).
      - coldtea 11y ago
        Is it that hard to understand that a middle/upper middle class kid with two educated supporting parents, encouragement since it was small, a college fund, etc has it EASIER than a poor kid from the projects? And that this holds regardless of "hard work" and "intelligent decisions for the future"? E.g. even if both make the exact same good decisions, the poor kid has to work harder to overcome what it lacked in encouragement, financial ease to just study, parental support, the need to get a job to pay the rent even while at college, etc.

jonesb6 11y ago

Also consider these two personal observations: 1) The increase in college enrollment has exceeded the capacity of many in-state schools (a.k.a. the more affordable ones) and influenced many 18-year olds to enroll in out-of-state schools (a.k.a. the six figure ones). 2) From a very young age kids today are taught that college is a no-brainer, and the quality of the college they go to will deeply impact their future success. So do you pick that community college route which is affordable, or that six figure out of state school? Every part of this is a quagmire, and it's creating more and more frustration and outrage. I have no clue what the end result will be, but it won't be good.

a3n 11y ago
> do you pick that community college route which is affordable, or that six figure out of state school? In case anyone is seriously in this dilemma, take up to two years of CC for prelims etc, then transfer to university. $UNIVERSITY will be where you graduate from, not CC. You'll also have smaller class sizes and will probably get more out of your classes and teachers.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  Except for universities which have transfer agreements with the particular CCs (which are common for state-run universities and same-state-run CCs, less so otherwise), it can be more difficult to transfer from a CC to university than for a student out of high school to get into that university as a freshman -- many universities are less geared to transfer admission, and many CCs don't provide opportunities to stand out (especially when competing transfers at the same level may be from other universities, as well as CCs.) So, that strategy can work -- but it has limits.
  - a3n 11y ago
    Yes, everything has limits, and it would be better if you could afford all four years at university. When you can't, you have to think of alternatives. This is one of them.
  - 11y ago

littletimmy 11y ago

This wouldn't be so problematic if college (state and community) were free. By most estimations, the cost of making college free is around $60 billion, which is not that significant. Just force corporations to pay proper taxes, use that money to make college free, and you'll be doing wonders for this country's citizens. Alternatively, consider that the Iraq war expenditure could have paid for college in this country practically through the next century.

ori_b 11y ago
To play devil's advocate: > Just force corporations to pay proper taxes, Considering that the USA is one of the few countries that taxes on overseas profits, and has a higher rate of tax than many countries, what exactly are 'proper taxes'? And considering that many countries have eliminated or reduced the cost of university without raising taxes excessively, why is it impossible to do the same in the USA?
- coldtea 11y ago
  Not to mention that $60 billion sounds like a small part of the military budget, which is already 4-10 times the size of the next country, and mostly used to abuse other places instead of defense.
  - jedrek 11y ago
    The main roles of the US Armed Forces are currently the support of US business interests abroad, corporate subsidies for contractors and as a government jobs program.
- cpursley 11y ago
  Exactly. The Corporations™ don't pay taxes; their customers do. Plenty of lower-tax nations are able to provide free or nearly free university, healthcare and other benefits. It's not a collection problem; it's a spending one.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Considering that the USA is one of the few countries that taxes on overseas profits, and has a higher rate of tax than many countries, what exactly are 'proper taxes'? The higher nominal corporate tax rate is misleading because of the structure of credits, deductions, etc.; the US collects a low level of corporate taxes compared to other developed countries (e.g., significantly below the OECD average.)

chubalub 11y ago

Maybe Tyrone just isn't college material, even with every advantage he would receive? Why lower standards? I am sure many college attendees have stories of fellow students who have no place in higher education. Trade schools are always an option. College is a scam. Hopefully we see some reform during the glorious presidency of Trump.

coldtea 11y ago

>There was a moment in his childhood, he recalls, when his parents lived together and the bills were being paid on time. But bad luck and a bad economy shook it all apart. One Thanksgiving, he says, his mother suffered eight strokes. A couple of months later his dad, a roofer, was badly injured in an accident. That this shortcut to poverty by medical bills can happen in a modern western society is appalling.

FussyZeus 11y ago
Shortcut? It's the express lane. My wife was in the ER for 4 hours for a bad asthma attack and it cost nearly two thousand bucks, and I'm told that's relatively cheap. We're STILL paying for it.
- MajorLOL 11y ago
  I'm sympathetic to your expense... I would also like to remind you of the operating costs. Not only trained professionals on staff 24/7 standing by to serve your wife when she has an asthma attack. The equipment, tooling and infrastructure alone justifies a bill of $2,000. If you had said that you went into a walk in clinic I would expect a much lower service cost. You went into the same place that is perpetually prepared for a mass casualty scenario and received that level of service. Insurance has us so disconnected from healthcare service costs its easy to think everything should cost the same as the local mechanic or lawn care service.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    So if you go to a collision specialist with a flat tire, it should cost $26,000 right? Because they were prepared to bend your chassis into a straight line again, even though you didn't actually need that? My wife was in a bed for 3 of the 4 hours, seen by two nurses for maybe 1 of those hours total, and the doctor for barely 30 minutes while she took a large dose of her standard drug that we get over the counter for $20 a month. I'm not saying people shouldn't get paid, but two thousand dollars? And that's AFTER insurance, by the way.

thisisrobv 11y ago

It's hard to read stories like this. It's so clear that the diversity issues in the tech industry are in part a signal of a much larger issue in our nation. Under represented minorities have such a tough time getting a decent education let alone one in computer science. That said, I'm hopeful that the industry that I'm a part of can play a large role in fixing this.

mreiland 11y ago
you mean people in poverty regardless of ethnicity...
pdex 11y ago
I went through far worse getting myself through college and yet I made it. Life isn't supposed to be easy.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

vinceguidry 11y ago

I think the national obsession with higher education will reach a breaking point eventually. It's just too expensive, the benefits are uncertain for lower-strata matriculants, and expecting students to pay the costs themselves is unreasonable. We're going to have to learn to live with a tiered system where the less well-off go to trade schools and well-to-do parents can pay for their kid's general education. The demand is there, the trades have been hemorrhaging talent for years, universities have been monopolizing the "what to do with kids after they graduate high school" market for way too long, and for-profit colleges are a bust. The answer is pay-as-you-go trade school, but it's going to take the nation awhile to warm to the idea. As one of my favorite sayings puts it, America is a nation of temporarily-embarrassed millionaires. We need to change our collective belief that a university education is every American's right. It's simply unmanageable. Perhaps in a few hundred years we'll have amassed enough national wealth to be able to afford the institutional and social investment, right now it's a pipe dream. I did not graduate college. I looked at the cost-benefit structure and decided I'd be better off making my own future as an autodidact. It worked for me, but I do not expect my children to follow in my footsteps, I am prepared to bear the entire cost of my children's education.

rayiner 11y ago
I don't know why your track has to be decided based on how much money your parents have. In Germany, your track is based on grades and tests. And you can still get a meaningful white collar job without going to university. Very few people need more than a high school education plus on the job education and training. Maybe just doctors, engineers, and scientists. It's just that in the U.S. we use education as a red herring to divert attention away from the real issues. E.g. It's unpleasant to talk about the total breakdown in family structure in inner cities? Let's shift the discussion to forcing these kids into mostly useless college education, as if people in other developed countries aren't working good paying respectable jobs after leaving school at 16.
- superuser2 11y ago
  >In Germany, your track is based on grades and tests Germany is also not militantly opposed to the idea of public investment in public welfare. Your track has to be decided based on how much money your parents have because a majority of American voters don't want their money going to help other people's children.

cpursley 11y ago

> A theater major Sigh I'm all for increasing access to education, but these types of majors with 0.02% chance of job placement in their field are a major disservice. Especially so for first-generation college students, and even more so when non-dischargeable debt is involved.

pdex 11y ago
I wonder who taught that person that it's sane or financially responsible to pick a major like that and harbor any expectation of getting out of poverty.
- mgkimsal 11y ago
  Large numbers of people who all chanted "do what you love and the money will follow". Which... while not necessarily wrong, doesn't mean that enough money will follow to pay off massive amounts of higher-ed debt. But that part of the equation doesn't get trotted out much...
  - pdex 11y ago
    Oh yes, it's a popular anthem and It's fine if you have no expectation of climbing the socioeconomic ladder. Before picking a major it's common sense to discover salary and job market information before committing to one, it's a no-brainer. This info is free, available from a variety of sources and easy to get: no excuses! Life isn't a feel-good circle jerk where people throw money your way simply out of one's desire to be happy, I'm sure the parents of college kids featured in the article are acutely aware of that, so is it stupidity or delusion that causes them to perpetuate the myth?

rokhayakebe 11y ago

Time: When you are poor 4 years is "seemingly" an eternity. The greatest gift money gives is the ability to think long term.