7 ms·

> It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Not true at all! It's impossible, without a hardware firewall. Their kernel network driver white

by frik 11y ago

> It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Not true at all! It's impossible, without a hardware firewall. Their kernel network driver whitelists several microsoft domains and IP address ranges. What's worse Microsoft back-ported that phone-home crap and ships them as updates to Windows 7 and 8.x (of course the coincidentally stopped writting descriptions for their Windows updates). Not even mentioning how they force end users to upgrade to Windows 10 by displaying Windows 10 ads as popup dialogs and renaming Windows update buttons to click on the Upgrade button by accident, etc. It will hurt Microsoft's reputation a lot. With Android and iOS an end user with a little bit of knowledge (power user) can deactivate the analytics, cloud sync and error reporting "features" by changing a handful of settings. Windows 10 resets the privacy settings every major update (Threshold 2), they go even as far as change the name of exe files and registry keys. It's not too late to fix Win10 and MS reputation though, do something in 2016.

lstamour 11y ago
It can be turned off in version 1511 for Enterprise and Education editions, under Group Policy: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85... See screenshot and guide at http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ Alternatively, disable this service if concerned: http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetry/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetr...
- criddell 11y ago
  I asked at the Microsoft store for an Enterprise edition of Windows and they told me it's not sold to consumers (they tried to tell me I want Windows 10 Professional). I'm not a student or a teacher, so I don't think I can buy the education edition either.
  - lstamour 11y ago
    You need 250+ users for Software Assurance through Enterprise Licensing programs: http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/F/5/1F5357DD-F7C8-4CC8-8C5F-7F6B1569ECF0/Transactional_Licensing_Comparison_Chart.pdf http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/F/5/1F5357DD-F7C8-4... However, through the MOSP (for 5-250, now called "Microsoft Online Services"), you can get Windows Intune with Software Assurance for Windows for $11/user (at least when it was announced), which includes Software Assurance, which then includes a copy of Windows 10 Enterprise (to upgrade/install on PCs for licensed users) as well as management tools. There's a way to add Office 365 on a per-user basis to your Intune subscription as well, as long as you maintain annual commitments (or some gibberish like that). I'm not entirely clear on the details, this is why Microsoft usually has folks call in for pricing and such. But I hear it's easy to manage. There's two methods of enterprise/education licensing, per user and per machine. Home/Pro are sold per-machine only, with varying features. See license agreements for details ;-) Ultimately, you can disable most/all of the Windows 10 spying yourself without special editions of Windows, they just make it easier for folks paying the big bucks.
    - yuhong 11y ago
      You can buy Win10 Enterprise with Software Assurance through Open Licence just fine too (and even the renewal isn't that expensive). More precisely, what it gains you is access to the "Security" telemetry level.
- frik 11y ago
  All can be turned off in Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch) - it's very expensive and not sold to consumer nor small business at all. But think about your doctor, your lawyer, etc. many smaller business, cheaper Windows 10 editon (non LTSB) they will unintentionally leak your confidential personal data. You say such PCs shouldn't be online at all? But they are and many of them run on Windows. Scary.
  - Silhouette 11y ago
    You say [doctors', lawyers' and many smaller businesses'] PCs shouldn't be online at all? But they are and many of them run on Windows. Scary. And almost certainly very illegal in a lot of places. Not only do you have whatever routine data protection rules apply, but in cases like medical data or legally privileged information there are higher standards required in many jurisdictions as well.
    - bashinator 11y ago
      I work for a company that has to maintain HIPAA compliance, and we're all utterly horrified by Win10.
  - lstamour 11y ago
    Technically the bit about it not being sold to small business is not true. You can get LTSB through Software Assurance through Windows Intune licensing on a per-user basis through Microsoft Online Services for companies of 5-250 people. And you don't need LTSB or Enterprise/Education SKUs to turn them off, you just get more convenient toggles there. Ultimately you're responsible for what services run on your computer, and your computer's configuration. If you don't trust the OS manufacturer, as someone else pointed out, why are you running their code in the first place? ;-)
    - geofft 11y ago
      Because you have external requirements (the software you need to run only supports Windows, there aren't any outsourced IT providers in your area that know how to manage any other OSes, regulators will be confused, etc.) that demand you run the OS regardless of whether you trust it. Or because you don't trust any of the other options either, which is an entirely reasonable stance.
- sroerick 11y ago
  Why isn't this a feature that consumers can have? The line I always hear from Microsoft apologists is that "You can turn these features off at any time", but everything I've seen suggests this is only true for Enterprise and Education.
  - lstamour 11y ago
    Because the point of modern Internet-based services is to collect analytics and telemetry for marketing and engineering without annoying consumers with unnecessary checkboxes. There's a minimum amount of sync you want to make easy because it's a feature, not a bug. That new releases contain functions old software didn't have is called progress. Why does Apple or Ubuntu get a free pass when Microsoft doesn't?
    - sroerick 11y ago
      That's fine, then. Leave the checkboxes out. But at least give consumers the option. Even if it's in Advanced Settings, just like every other obscure privacy invading Microsoft feature. > It's a feature, not a bug. Really? You might want to rethink your talking points here... There really isn't a good connotation with this phrase. I criticize Apple and Ubuntu equally, as well. Apple's telemetry is comparable, though it is worth saying they've made major public pushes for privacy. This is not to say I trust them, but the effort is noted. (In fact, elsewhere in this thread I criticized Apple for sending data to iCloud.) Comparing Ubuntu telemetry to Microsoft's is disingenuous at best, and outright deceptive at worst. I'm not a huge Canonical fan and I disagree with some of their practices, but saying they are at the same degree of privacy violations as Microsoft is ludicrous.
raesene9 11y ago
Why do you think ordinary users should try to disable all the cloud based features of their OS? Surely a lot of the features they want (e.g. Google Now, Siri, Cortana) are based on the OS provider knowing about the users and having information about them. If your threat model is that the OS provider is hostile, no amount of changing of settings will protect you from their actions...
- sroerick 11y ago
  "Our research shows that users WANT these features that require us to constantly monitor microphones for certain phrases." Maybe the OS provider should stop being hostile.
  - serge2k 11y ago
    Was that said by the people doing Siri, Google Now, or Cortana?
  - raesene9 11y ago
    I don't think they're being hostile, I think they're providing features they think people want. Personally I hate this kind of feature and try to actively avoid products which have it, however I feel I am in a minority of general consumers in that feeling.
- hueving 11y ago
  >If your threat model is that the OS provider is hostile, no amount of changing of settings will protect you from their actions... No, the threat model is that centrally collected data will be pilfered by the government or the company itself. If it's just not collected in the first place the temptation won't be there to abuse it. It's like saying, "if your threat model is that the government is hostile, there is nothing you can do to prevent them from getting information from you." There are lines the government won't cross (e.g. US govt torturing your family members in front of you) and there are lines Microsoft won't cross (e.g. secret exfiltration of your files).
  - 11y ago
e1ven 11y ago
I'd love to learn more about what's explicitly whitelisted, and can't be blocked by DWS or other on-system resources. I've tried Googling, but it's hard to find pages which discuss it without knowing the right terms to search by. Can you help provide a link so I can learn more?
yoz-y 11y ago
Why do you put cloud sync and error reporting features into scare quotes? For a developer, the error reporting features are awesome and users get direct benefit from them (bugs squashed faster). I would take a crash dump over a poorly written (or nonexistent) bug report e-mail any time.

by frik 11y ago

lstamour 11y ago

It can be turned off in version 1511 for Enterprise and Education editions, under Group Policy: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85... See screenshot and guide at http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ Alternatively, disable this service if concerned: http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetry/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetr...

criddell 11y ago
I asked at the Microsoft store for an Enterprise edition of Windows and they told me it's not sold to consumers (they tried to tell me I want Windows 10 Professional). I'm not a student or a teacher, so I don't think I can buy the education edition either.
- lstamour 11y ago
  You need 250+ users for Software Assurance through Enterprise Licensing programs: http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/F/5/1F5357DD-F7C8-4CC8-8C5F-7F6B1569ECF0/Transactional_Licensing_Comparison_Chart.pdf http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/F/5/1F5357DD-F7C8-4... However, through the MOSP (for 5-250, now called "Microsoft Online Services"), you can get Windows Intune with Software Assurance for Windows for $11/user (at least when it was announced), which includes Software Assurance, which then includes a copy of Windows 10 Enterprise (to upgrade/install on PCs for licensed users) as well as management tools. There's a way to add Office 365 on a per-user basis to your Intune subscription as well, as long as you maintain annual commitments (or some gibberish like that). I'm not entirely clear on the details, this is why Microsoft usually has folks call in for pricing and such. But I hear it's easy to manage. There's two methods of enterprise/education licensing, per user and per machine. Home/Pro are sold per-machine only, with varying features. See license agreements for details ;-) Ultimately, you can disable most/all of the Windows 10 spying yourself without special editions of Windows, they just make it easier for folks paying the big bucks.
  - yuhong 11y ago
    You can buy Win10 Enterprise with Software Assurance through Open Licence just fine too (and even the renewal isn't that expensive). More precisely, what it gains you is access to the "Security" telemetry level.
frik 11y ago
All can be turned off in Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch) - it's very expensive and not sold to consumer nor small business at all. But think about your doctor, your lawyer, etc. many smaller business, cheaper Windows 10 editon (non LTSB) they will unintentionally leak your confidential personal data. You say such PCs shouldn't be online at all? But they are and many of them run on Windows. Scary.
- Silhouette 11y ago
  You say [doctors', lawyers' and many smaller businesses'] PCs shouldn't be online at all? But they are and many of them run on Windows. Scary. And almost certainly very illegal in a lot of places. Not only do you have whatever routine data protection rules apply, but in cases like medical data or legally privileged information there are higher standards required in many jurisdictions as well.
  - bashinator 11y ago
    I work for a company that has to maintain HIPAA compliance, and we're all utterly horrified by Win10.
- lstamour 11y ago
  Technically the bit about it not being sold to small business is not true. You can get LTSB through Software Assurance through Windows Intune licensing on a per-user basis through Microsoft Online Services for companies of 5-250 people. And you don't need LTSB or Enterprise/Education SKUs to turn them off, you just get more convenient toggles there. Ultimately you're responsible for what services run on your computer, and your computer's configuration. If you don't trust the OS manufacturer, as someone else pointed out, why are you running their code in the first place? ;-)
  - geofft 11y ago
    Because you have external requirements (the software you need to run only supports Windows, there aren't any outsourced IT providers in your area that know how to manage any other OSes, regulators will be confused, etc.) that demand you run the OS regardless of whether you trust it. Or because you don't trust any of the other options either, which is an entirely reasonable stance.
sroerick 11y ago
Why isn't this a feature that consumers can have? The line I always hear from Microsoft apologists is that "You can turn these features off at any time", but everything I've seen suggests this is only true for Enterprise and Education.
- lstamour 11y ago
  Because the point of modern Internet-based services is to collect analytics and telemetry for marketing and engineering without annoying consumers with unnecessary checkboxes. There's a minimum amount of sync you want to make easy because it's a feature, not a bug. That new releases contain functions old software didn't have is called progress. Why does Apple or Ubuntu get a free pass when Microsoft doesn't?
  - sroerick 11y ago
    That's fine, then. Leave the checkboxes out. But at least give consumers the option. Even if it's in Advanced Settings, just like every other obscure privacy invading Microsoft feature. > It's a feature, not a bug. Really? You might want to rethink your talking points here... There really isn't a good connotation with this phrase. I criticize Apple and Ubuntu equally, as well. Apple's telemetry is comparable, though it is worth saying they've made major public pushes for privacy. This is not to say I trust them, but the effort is noted. (In fact, elsewhere in this thread I criticized Apple for sending data to iCloud.) Comparing Ubuntu telemetry to Microsoft's is disingenuous at best, and outright deceptive at worst. I'm not a huge Canonical fan and I disagree with some of their practices, but saying they are at the same degree of privacy violations as Microsoft is ludicrous.

raesene9 11y ago

Why do you think ordinary users should try to disable all the cloud based features of their OS? Surely a lot of the features they want (e.g. Google Now, Siri, Cortana) are based on the OS provider knowing about the users and having information about them. If your threat model is that the OS provider is hostile, no amount of changing of settings will protect you from their actions...

sroerick 11y ago
"Our research shows that users WANT these features that require us to constantly monitor microphones for certain phrases." Maybe the OS provider should stop being hostile.
- serge2k 11y ago
  Was that said by the people doing Siri, Google Now, or Cortana?
- raesene9 11y ago
  I don't think they're being hostile, I think they're providing features they think people want. Personally I hate this kind of feature and try to actively avoid products which have it, however I feel I am in a minority of general consumers in that feeling.
hueving 11y ago
>If your threat model is that the OS provider is hostile, no amount of changing of settings will protect you from their actions... No, the threat model is that centrally collected data will be pilfered by the government or the company itself. If it's just not collected in the first place the temptation won't be there to abuse it. It's like saying, "if your threat model is that the government is hostile, there is nothing you can do to prevent them from getting information from you." There are lines the government won't cross (e.g. US govt torturing your family members in front of you) and there are lines Microsoft won't cross (e.g. secret exfiltration of your files).
- 11y ago

e1ven 11y ago

I'd love to learn more about what's explicitly whitelisted, and can't be blocked by DWS or other on-system resources. I've tried Googling, but it's hard to find pages which discuss it without knowing the right terms to search by. Can you help provide a link so I can learn more?

yoz-y 11y ago

Why do you put cloud sync and error reporting features into scare quotes? For a developer, the error reporting features are awesome and users get direct benefit from them (bugs squashed faster). I would take a crash dump over a poorly written (or nonexistent) bug report e-mail any time.