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Here's a source that shows a correlation between ice cream sales and homicides: (http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/07/09/warm_weather_homicide_rates_when_ic

Here's a source that shows a correlation between ice cream sales and homicides: (http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/07/09/warm_weather_homicide_rates_when_ice_cream_sales_rise_homicides_rise_coincidence.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/07/09/warm_weather_hom...). I'm sure if we unpacked the BLS data you cite we'd also see a correlation between higher earners coming from intact families and the possession of other forms of social capital in addition to a degree. The question is which is the dominant driver? As for the citations you requested, I'd point to the raft of sob stories that have been published over the last few years which feature unfortunate stories of people six figures in debt, but working jobs that require no training. It could be these are cherry-picked examples to help advance a faulty narrative (e.g. http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html), but to the extent they reflect a real problem we should examine the broken logic that created it. So why would I suggest anyone go to a state school? As I mentioned in the last paragraph of my previous post, since WWII we've become more credential-focused and made a BA the bare minimum for many professional career paths——something that should be remedied in my opinion, but the reality. You suggest the commodification of education is the problem—I'd argue the problem is that we don't treat college enough like a product. Because we treat it like a rite of passage for young adults, and subsidize it heavily, you have horrible colleges offering degrees at the same price as elite schools. Instead of analytically valuing the degree based on the quality of the education offered, we treat degrees as fungible goods and splurge emotionally to obtain them. In many parts of America you need a car to participate in the workforce. We don't offer subsidies so everyone can go out and buy a Bently. If you can afford college, go, it's a great, mind-expanding experience for a young mind. It is a good rite of passage into adulthood in the US, but so is joining the military or going on a religious mission. So is night school after you've found a career path you like, but need further education to advance in. I don't understand the reflexive desire to turn the protection of 3rd rate colleges into a cause célèbre.

intopieces 11y ago
>Because we treat it like a rite of passage for young adults, and subsidize it heavily, you have horrible colleges offering degrees at the same price as elite schools. It's not the rite of passage that raises the cost, but the cheap student loans that incentivize colleges to raise the price of tuition and hire middle-level administrators. This says nothing of the 'value' of education, only the 'cost.' I'm with you that college is too expensive. But the solution is not forgoing education so that the ultra rich continue to have better opportunities. It's making education cheaper so that more people gain more knowledge. And apparently our society doesn't take this rite of passage too seriously, since only 40% of Americans have a college degree [0]. >I don't understand the reflexive desire to turn the protection of 3rd rate colleges into a cause célèbre. Me neither. But the existence of third rate colleges is not an indictment of colleges. The post I responded to of yours said that "in most cases a college degree is next to worthless". I'm taking you to task on that claim as being demonstrably false. I'm sorry that you didn't get what you wanted out of college, I truly am. But please stop advocating for the wholesale elimination of the most accessible path to success for millions of low and middle-income Americans who are not exceptional. (You advocated for this when you suggested we tell parents the college education they hope their children can get is "next to worthless.") More educated adults means a more informed electorate and the higher chance of American innovation that allows the country to be competitive in a global market. [0]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/percentage-americans-college-degrees-rises-paying-degrees-tops-financial-challenges/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/percentage-americans-col...
- joshvm 11y ago
  The stat you linked to is misleading. 40% of Americans aged between 25-64 covers anyone who graduated in the last forty years. You should look at recent graduates to remove any bias from older generations who may have been educated before the 'rite of passage' idea became popular. On the other hand, the actual figure is around 35% for 25-29 year olds so it's not far off. It goes up to 45% if you include associate degrees. While that doesn't seem like much, it's more than 1 in 3 and 25 years ago it was 1 in 4. For a qualification that was once an elite bit of paper, that's a lot of people. It's also showing no sign of decreasing, increased costs or not. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_caa.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_caa.asp > But please stop advocating for the wholesale elimination of the most accessible path to success for millions of low and middle-income Americans who are not exceptional. Is there a citation for that? Median wages, over time, have not improved in line with a more educated populous. More people getting degrees has not translated into a more wealthy population. Note that in the UK at least, some of the larger firms have stopped asking for degrees and simply require you to pass in-house testing. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/ey-firm-says-it-will-not-longer-consider-degrees-or-a-level-results-when-assessing-employees-10436355.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/e...

intopieces 11y ago

>Because we treat it like a rite of passage for young adults, and subsidize it heavily, you have horrible colleges offering degrees at the same price as elite schools. It's not the rite of passage that raises the cost, but the cheap student loans that incentivize colleges to raise the price of tuition and hire middle-level administrators. This says nothing of the 'value' of education, only the 'cost.' I'm with you that college is too expensive. But the solution is not forgoing education so that the ultra rich continue to have better opportunities. It's making education cheaper so that more people gain more knowledge. And apparently our society doesn't take this rite of passage too seriously, since only 40% of Americans have a college degree [0]. >I don't understand the reflexive desire to turn the protection of 3rd rate colleges into a cause célèbre. Me neither. But the existence of third rate colleges is not an indictment of colleges. The post I responded to of yours said that "in most cases a college degree is next to worthless". I'm taking you to task on that claim as being demonstrably false. I'm sorry that you didn't get what you wanted out of college, I truly am. But please stop advocating for the wholesale elimination of the most accessible path to success for millions of low and middle-income Americans who are not exceptional. (You advocated for this when you suggested we tell parents the college education they hope their children can get is "next to worthless.") More educated adults means a more informed electorate and the higher chance of American innovation that allows the country to be competitive in a global market. [0]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/percentage-americans-college-degrees-rises-paying-degrees-tops-financial-challenges/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/percentage-americans-col...

joshvm 11y ago
The stat you linked to is misleading. 40% of Americans aged between 25-64 covers anyone who graduated in the last forty years. You should look at recent graduates to remove any bias from older generations who may have been educated before the 'rite of passage' idea became popular. On the other hand, the actual figure is around 35% for 25-29 year olds so it's not far off. It goes up to 45% if you include associate degrees. While that doesn't seem like much, it's more than 1 in 3 and 25 years ago it was 1 in 4. For a qualification that was once an elite bit of paper, that's a lot of people. It's also showing no sign of decreasing, increased costs or not. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_caa.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_caa.asp > But please stop advocating for the wholesale elimination of the most accessible path to success for millions of low and middle-income Americans who are not exceptional. Is there a citation for that? Median wages, over time, have not improved in line with a more educated populous. More people getting degrees has not translated into a more wealthy population. Note that in the UK at least, some of the larger firms have stopped asking for degrees and simply require you to pass in-house testing. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/ey-firm-says-it-will-not-longer-consider-degrees-or-a-level-results-when-assessing-employees-10436355.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/e...