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I agree with the "fuck the TSA" sentiment, really I do. I also appreciate the work you do with the Wine community and at Codeweavers. But as a government worker

I agree with the "fuck the TSA" sentiment, really I do. I also appreciate the work you do with the Wine community and at Codeweavers. But as a government worker myself, I can say first hand that the peons are not "The System", and that woman whose day you hope you ruined doesn't make the policies she has no choice but to follow. Sure, there are a few TSA workers who inevitably derive pleasure (or simply don't feel anything, which may be worse) from having to do what they do. But for most, it's just a job, and certainly not their dream job. If you're going to piss down the throat of a random TSA worker, I can easily picture you as the self-important asshole who makes fun of the cashier at the grocery store to her face for being so poor, or who kicks a dog when it crosses your path a bit too slowly. In other words, you come across as a sociopathic asshole. It's not all about you, dude, and it's not King Coldpie's world the rest of us grovel in. Grow the fuck up already.

coldpie 11y ago
I don't understand the equivalence between "someone who's making me wait in line for hours in order to have all my shit taken out of my bags and re-packed by myself in order to perform provably[1] no useful service to anyone" and "someone who checks me out at the grocery store." One is actively making my day worse to no useful purpose, so I treat them like the dirt that they are. The other is performing a valuable service which I appreciate and thank accordingly. [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/investigation-breaches-us-airports-allowed-weapons-through-n367851 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/investigation-breaches-u...
- morganvachon 11y ago
  > One is actively making my day worse to no useful purpose, so I treat them like the dirt that they are. You're making two mistakes here. One, you're assuming that all TSA agents are evil jerks who only took the job so they can fulfill their life's goal of fucking with coldpie. I'll counter that the vast majority of TSA employees are regular people like you'd find in any entry level position. Maybe they hate their job, or maybe they feel they are doing their part in keeping America safe (whether they believe the security theater bullshit they're fed, or not). Either way, they are human beings just like you. You are no better than they are, and vice versa. You are putting yourself on a pedestal and looking down on them as if they are subhuman. That is textbook sociopath. Two, you are equating policy set by their superiors with the entry level agents themselves. They have absolutely no say in what they are forced to do, yet they are the ones you're taking it all out on. You're quite simply barking up the wrong tree. If you want anyone to take you seriously rather than thinking you're a raving lunatic, you should direct your ire towards the policy makers. Work the political angle, because you're fighting a losing battle on the ground. Making one of thousands of employees feel like shit does absolutely nothing for your claimed cause, and only serves to feed your own selfish need to feel superior (which I strongly suspect is your actual motive, whether you realize it or not).
  - coldpie 11y ago
    > You are putting yourself on a pedestal and looking down on them as if they are subhuman. No. I am angry at people for mistreating me to no one's benefit. > They have absolutely no say in what they are forced to do, yet they are the ones you're taking it all out on. You're quite simply barking up the wrong tree. Do you believe that being paid removes all culpability for your actions? Suppose I found someone to pay me to break the windows in your house[1] every day. Would you treat me with kindness and thank me for my service, while writing a letter to my benefactor asking him politely to stop paying me to break your windows? [1] Ignore the legality of this action. If that's a sticking point for you, replace it with some other legal-but-annoying behavior, whatever.
    - morganvachon 11y ago
      > No. I am angry at people for mistreating me to no one's benefit. I'd say you're angry at the system (and rightfully so!), and taking it out on the ones who are just trying to feed their families. You're quite literally cutting off the nose to spite the face. And I still maintain that you are yourself just as sadistic and hateful as the system you bemoan, if not more so.
      - coldpie 11y ago
        So you think that getting paid relieves you of all culpability for your actions. I don't agree.
        morganvachon 11y ago
        > So you think that getting paid relieves you of all culpability for your actions. Not at all, and you know very well I never said that. Since you're so keen on putting words in my mouth to reach an erroneous conclusion, I'm just going to stop here.
        coldpie 11y ago
        You were asked the question twice[1][2] and ignored it both times, so I was trying to pin down an answer. I'm trying to find where our disagreement lies. 1) We agree that the TSA agents' actions should make me angry. 2) We agree that the TSA agents themselves are culpable for their actions. 3) Therefor, it makes sense for me to be angry at the TSA agents. 4) I think our disagreement lies here, where I think I am allowed to retaliate (within the bounds of the law, obviously) against those who upset me, while you think I'm not. You were couching your argument in terms of "they're just doing their jobs; be angry at the policy makers, not at those who carry out the policy," which made me think the disagreement was in (2) above. But your reply here makes me think the disagreement is in (4). I understand the viewpoint that one should always turn the other cheek to one's oppressors. I don't subscribe to it myself. If they're going to harass and anger me and waste my time, I really don't have any problems returning the favor. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801547 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801549
cryoshon 11y ago
Ah, but the obedience of the peons IS the system. This is why we have enshrined the idea of "following orders is not an excuse". There will always be people willing to do bad things because they are told, and we must treat them as culpable. I guess you can argue that poverty "forces" people into working for the TSA, but that's just as dehumanizing because it implies they have no agency. These people have agency, and chose to work for the TSA, which they likely knew beforehand was a much detested organization. Without peons, there are no effectors for the policies passed from above, and historically, we've seen the people at the top be terrified and manipulated by disorder in their bottom most ranks.
- morganvachon 11y ago
  And yet you have people like me, who work for "the man" (in my case as customer relations), whose job is to ensure the public is well served and gets exactly what they need from the agency. Granted, I work for local government and not federal, but the concept is the same. I go out of my way to make sure the person whose needs I'm serving are met, with a smile and courteousness that I'm not forced to offer. Of course, I could just "play the role" and be a cold, bureaucratic robot, but I prefer to give what I'd like to get. When I go to the Department of Driver Services, I want the clerk to be polite and helpful, therefore in my job I do the same. Besides, how do you know the TSA agent being spit on isn't trying to work their way up the chain so they can be a better manager and fix the way things work on the ground floor? Someone like coldpie could be ironically dragging down the spirit of the one person on his side. The world isn't black and white, nor is it two-dimensional. Every single government employee is not a mindless drone, implicit in the shenanigans of their superiors.
  - coldpie 11y ago
    > [my] job is to ensure the public is well served and gets exactly what they need from the agency See if you can puzzle out the difference between you and the TSA clowns that makes me treat you well and them like scum.
    - morganvachon 11y ago
CWuestefeld 11y ago
the peons are not "The System", and that woman whose day you hope you ruined doesn't make the policies she has no choice but to follow. I can understand feeling empathy for the people doing these jobs, but that doesn't make them less responsible for their moral decisions. "I was just following orders" is not a legitimate excuse. (I won't finish the comment, out of respect for Godwin's Law)
- morganvachon 11y ago
  > "I was just following orders" is not a legitimate excuse. Nor is there an excuse for treating another human being like a piece of shit because they have a job you don't like. How is one any better than the other?
  - coldpie 11y ago
    For the thousandth time, I'm not mistreating them because they "have a job I don't like." I'm mistreating them because they are mistreating me for no benefit to anyone. I'm sorry I'm not Ghandi, but when someone harms me for absolutely no reason I'm liable to be angry about it.

coldpie 11y ago

I don't understand the equivalence between "someone who's making me wait in line for hours in order to have all my shit taken out of my bags and re-packed by myself in order to perform provably[1] no useful service to anyone" and "someone who checks me out at the grocery store." One is actively making my day worse to no useful purpose, so I treat them like the dirt that they are. The other is performing a valuable service which I appreciate and thank accordingly. [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/investigation-breaches-us-airports-allowed-weapons-through-n367851 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/investigation-breaches-u...

morganvachon 11y ago
> One is actively making my day worse to no useful purpose, so I treat them like the dirt that they are. You're making two mistakes here. One, you're assuming that all TSA agents are evil jerks who only took the job so they can fulfill their life's goal of fucking with coldpie. I'll counter that the vast majority of TSA employees are regular people like you'd find in any entry level position. Maybe they hate their job, or maybe they feel they are doing their part in keeping America safe (whether they believe the security theater bullshit they're fed, or not). Either way, they are human beings just like you. You are no better than they are, and vice versa. You are putting yourself on a pedestal and looking down on them as if they are subhuman. That is textbook sociopath. Two, you are equating policy set by their superiors with the entry level agents themselves. They have absolutely no say in what they are forced to do, yet they are the ones you're taking it all out on. You're quite simply barking up the wrong tree. If you want anyone to take you seriously rather than thinking you're a raving lunatic, you should direct your ire towards the policy makers. Work the political angle, because you're fighting a losing battle on the ground. Making one of thousands of employees feel like shit does absolutely nothing for your claimed cause, and only serves to feed your own selfish need to feel superior (which I strongly suspect is your actual motive, whether you realize it or not).
- coldpie 11y ago
  > You are putting yourself on a pedestal and looking down on them as if they are subhuman. No. I am angry at people for mistreating me to no one's benefit. > They have absolutely no say in what they are forced to do, yet they are the ones you're taking it all out on. You're quite simply barking up the wrong tree. Do you believe that being paid removes all culpability for your actions? Suppose I found someone to pay me to break the windows in your house[1] every day. Would you treat me with kindness and thank me for my service, while writing a letter to my benefactor asking him politely to stop paying me to break your windows? [1] Ignore the legality of this action. If that's a sticking point for you, replace it with some other legal-but-annoying behavior, whatever.
  - morganvachon 11y ago
    > No. I am angry at people for mistreating me to no one's benefit. I'd say you're angry at the system (and rightfully so!), and taking it out on the ones who are just trying to feed their families. You're quite literally cutting off the nose to spite the face. And I still maintain that you are yourself just as sadistic and hateful as the system you bemoan, if not more so.
    - coldpie 11y ago
      So you think that getting paid relieves you of all culpability for your actions. I don't agree.
      - morganvachon 11y ago
        > So you think that getting paid relieves you of all culpability for your actions. Not at all, and you know very well I never said that. Since you're so keen on putting words in my mouth to reach an erroneous conclusion, I'm just going to stop here.
        coldpie 11y ago
        You were asked the question twice[1][2] and ignored it both times, so I was trying to pin down an answer. I'm trying to find where our disagreement lies. 1) We agree that the TSA agents' actions should make me angry. 2) We agree that the TSA agents themselves are culpable for their actions. 3) Therefor, it makes sense for me to be angry at the TSA agents. 4) I think our disagreement lies here, where I think I am allowed to retaliate (within the bounds of the law, obviously) against those who upset me, while you think I'm not. You were couching your argument in terms of "they're just doing their jobs; be angry at the policy makers, not at those who carry out the policy," which made me think the disagreement was in (2) above. But your reply here makes me think the disagreement is in (4). I understand the viewpoint that one should always turn the other cheek to one's oppressors. I don't subscribe to it myself. If they're going to harass and anger me and waste my time, I really don't have any problems returning the favor. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801547 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10801549

cryoshon 11y ago

Ah, but the obedience of the peons IS the system. This is why we have enshrined the idea of "following orders is not an excuse". There will always be people willing to do bad things because they are told, and we must treat them as culpable. I guess you can argue that poverty "forces" people into working for the TSA, but that's just as dehumanizing because it implies they have no agency. These people have agency, and chose to work for the TSA, which they likely knew beforehand was a much detested organization. Without peons, there are no effectors for the policies passed from above, and historically, we've seen the people at the top be terrified and manipulated by disorder in their bottom most ranks.

morganvachon 11y ago
And yet you have people like me, who work for "the man" (in my case as customer relations), whose job is to ensure the public is well served and gets exactly what they need from the agency. Granted, I work for local government and not federal, but the concept is the same. I go out of my way to make sure the person whose needs I'm serving are met, with a smile and courteousness that I'm not forced to offer. Of course, I could just "play the role" and be a cold, bureaucratic robot, but I prefer to give what I'd like to get. When I go to the Department of Driver Services, I want the clerk to be polite and helpful, therefore in my job I do the same. Besides, how do you know the TSA agent being spit on isn't trying to work their way up the chain so they can be a better manager and fix the way things work on the ground floor? Someone like coldpie could be ironically dragging down the spirit of the one person on his side. The world isn't black and white, nor is it two-dimensional. Every single government employee is not a mindless drone, implicit in the shenanigans of their superiors.
- coldpie 11y ago
  > [my] job is to ensure the public is well served and gets exactly what they need from the agency See if you can puzzle out the difference between you and the TSA clowns that makes me treat you well and them like scum.
  - morganvachon 11y ago

CWuestefeld 11y ago

the peons are not "The System", and that woman whose day you hope you ruined doesn't make the policies she has no choice but to follow. I can understand feeling empathy for the people doing these jobs, but that doesn't make them less responsible for their moral decisions. "I was just following orders" is not a legitimate excuse. (I won't finish the comment, out of respect for Godwin's Law)

morganvachon 11y ago
> "I was just following orders" is not a legitimate excuse. Nor is there an excuse for treating another human being like a piece of shit because they have a job you don't like. How is one any better than the other?
- coldpie 11y ago
  For the thousandth time, I'm not mistreating them because they "have a job I don't like." I'm mistreating them because they are mistreating me for no benefit to anyone. I'm sorry I'm not Ghandi, but when someone harms me for absolutely no reason I'm liable to be angry about it.