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Answering your edit: don't people have to come to this conclusion on their own, rather than be "convinced"? Doesn't someone have to pass through some period of

Answering your edit: don't people have to come to this conclusion on their own, rather than be "convinced"? Doesn't someone have to pass through some period of anhedonia, and the realization that "things" aren't going to make them happier, before they can start to see the structure that will help? If so, and if your desire is to help normal people, I guess your choices are to a) find a strategy that sells anhedonia against the formidable marketing budget of pretty much everyone, everywhere in this culture, or b) capture them on the other side and offer them the structure they need to build a life after anhedonia. 75% of these Robert Pirsig quotes [1] seem relevant, in some way. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10799124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10799124

dasyatidprime 11y ago
Which Robert Pirsig quotes did you mean again? That link seems to be for this article itself.
- spooningtamarin 11y ago
  “The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward from there.” “The real cycle you're working on is a cycle called yourself.” “Like those in the valley behind us, most people stand in sight of the spiritual mountains all their lives and never enter them, being content to listen to others who have been there and thus avoid the hardships.” These talk a little bit about self-improvement, or that knowledge is not understanding. Telling someone that new relationships aren't going to help, that acquiring new stuff won't help, is just giving them your personal knowledge/wisdom but you can't give them understanding.
onetwotree 11y ago
This is certainly how most people reach happiness, a conclusion supported by more than a few thinkers (Kierkegaard comes to mind). But is this really the only way? In AA we like to emphasize that there's no such thing as "hitting rock bottom". That is, even if you haven't lost everything, you can have the foresight to stop drinking and get your shit together, and recognize the necessity of changing yourself. That said, most people, myself included, have to hit quite a few rock bottoms before we get the point.

dasyatidprime 11y ago

Which Robert Pirsig quotes did you mean again? That link seems to be for this article itself.

spooningtamarin 11y ago
“The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward from there.” “The real cycle you're working on is a cycle called yourself.” “Like those in the valley behind us, most people stand in sight of the spiritual mountains all their lives and never enter them, being content to listen to others who have been there and thus avoid the hardships.” These talk a little bit about self-improvement, or that knowledge is not understanding. Telling someone that new relationships aren't going to help, that acquiring new stuff won't help, is just giving them your personal knowledge/wisdom but you can't give them understanding.

onetwotree 11y ago

This is certainly how most people reach happiness, a conclusion supported by more than a few thinkers (Kierkegaard comes to mind). But is this really the only way? In AA we like to emphasize that there's no such thing as "hitting rock bottom". That is, even if you haven't lost everything, you can have the foresight to stop drinking and get your shit together, and recognize the necessity of changing yourself. That said, most people, myself included, have to hit quite a few rock bottoms before we get the point.