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This is probably my biggest criticism of React (and by extension similar such as Angular 2, although React's choice of JSX is a clear exacerbation of this probl

by Bahamut 11y ago

This is probably my biggest criticism of React (and by extension similar such as Angular 2, although React's choice of JSX is a clear exacerbation of this problem) - the move towards more tooling is terrible for what should be something simple. HTML/CSS/JS are not rocket science - in themselves, they're simple languages for building a user-facing app. It is developers making things more complicated by having us use a whole smorgasbord of tooling to optimize for using [insert feature] instead of trying to keep things as simple as possible. I just hope that over the next few years that this simplifies so that we don't need to have build tooling run everything.

moonchrome 11y ago
Angular choses TS (well it's optional but so is jsx). This is also my no.1 pain point with typescript - they focus on the typechecking part only - you want new JS features ? Use custom js transpilers, polyfills, etc. This means setting up custom typings, build system, module loader, etc. JS land is just a huge mess to put it nicely because of th inherent problem with browser portability but its made much worse by the low barrier to entry community full of noise. I wish Dart had a better JS interop and faster compiler, in theory it solves all of my JS pains (excellent std lib, sane semantics, default package manager, modules from start, etc.) - in practice it produces big js files, compiling takes forever once you include frameworks, talking to JS is c ffi level of tedious (from what I understand they are working on improving it but its still non trivial with a significant performance overhead)
- SureshG 11y ago
  Reg dart js interoperability check - http://news.dartlang.org/2015/11/dart-113-brings-improved-javascript.html http://news.dartlang.org/2015/11/dart-113-brings-improved-ja...
  - moonchrome 11y ago
    Looking at that module : https://www.dartdocs.org/documentation/js/0.6.0/ https://www.dartdocs.org/documentation/js/0.6.0/ The only documentation is bare-bones examples - 0 docs about conversion between dart<->js objects/collections/closures etc. when crossing JS interfaces. You will agree that this is an area which requires very precise description of semantics - after all we are bridging two dynamic languages with two incompatible object interfaces one on top of the other - reverse engineering the semantics sounds like a nightmare. From here : https://github.com/dart-lang/js-interop-deprecated https://github.com/dart-lang/js-interop-deprecated I was able to find this : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X0M7iQ1PraH50353OnjKidgrd0EK6NpLNXVI27jitFY/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X0M7iQ1PraH50353OnjKidgr... which was last updated in 2014 and I'm not sure if it's relevant.
baddox 11y ago
> the move towards more tooling is terrible for what should be something simple. I couldn't disagree more. I think the advances in tooling around web development is extremely exciting and absolutely necessary if we as an industry want to get our act together writing complex web applications. It's worse for getting new people into programming or web development, but there are always pretty simple drop-in scripts people can use to play with things like Babel, React, or even crazy stuff like full client-side module loading with SystemJS: https://gist.github.com/cem2ran/9be3dd3499566302d5ae https://gist.github.com/cem2ran/9be3dd3499566302d5ae > HTML/CSS/JS are not rocket science - in themselves, they're simple languages for building a user-facing app. I think that's extremely dismissive, and woefully underestimates the difficulties one faces building a complex long-lived web application.

by Bahamut 11y ago

moonchrome 11y ago

Angular choses TS (well it's optional but so is jsx). This is also my no.1 pain point with typescript - they focus on the typechecking part only - you want new JS features ? Use custom js transpilers, polyfills, etc. This means setting up custom typings, build system, module loader, etc. JS land is just a huge mess to put it nicely because of th inherent problem with browser portability but its made much worse by the low barrier to entry community full of noise. I wish Dart had a better JS interop and faster compiler, in theory it solves all of my JS pains (excellent std lib, sane semantics, default package manager, modules from start, etc.) - in practice it produces big js files, compiling takes forever once you include frameworks, talking to JS is c ffi level of tedious (from what I understand they are working on improving it but its still non trivial with a significant performance overhead)

SureshG 11y ago
Reg dart js interoperability check - http://news.dartlang.org/2015/11/dart-113-brings-improved-javascript.html http://news.dartlang.org/2015/11/dart-113-brings-improved-ja...
- moonchrome 11y ago
  Looking at that module : https://www.dartdocs.org/documentation/js/0.6.0/ https://www.dartdocs.org/documentation/js/0.6.0/ The only documentation is bare-bones examples - 0 docs about conversion between dart<->js objects/collections/closures etc. when crossing JS interfaces. You will agree that this is an area which requires very precise description of semantics - after all we are bridging two dynamic languages with two incompatible object interfaces one on top of the other - reverse engineering the semantics sounds like a nightmare. From here : https://github.com/dart-lang/js-interop-deprecated https://github.com/dart-lang/js-interop-deprecated I was able to find this : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X0M7iQ1PraH50353OnjKidgrd0EK6NpLNXVI27jitFY/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X0M7iQ1PraH50353OnjKidgr... which was last updated in 2014 and I'm not sure if it's relevant.

baddox 11y ago

> the move towards more tooling is terrible for what should be something simple. I couldn't disagree more. I think the advances in tooling around web development is extremely exciting and absolutely necessary if we as an industry want to get our act together writing complex web applications. It's worse for getting new people into programming or web development, but there are always pretty simple drop-in scripts people can use to play with things like Babel, React, or even crazy stuff like full client-side module loading with SystemJS: https://gist.github.com/cem2ran/9be3dd3499566302d5ae https://gist.github.com/cem2ran/9be3dd3499566302d5ae > HTML/CSS/JS are not rocket science - in themselves, they're simple languages for building a user-facing app. I think that's extremely dismissive, and woefully underestimates the difficulties one faces building a complex long-lived web application.