6 ms·

This is a great excerpt: -------------------------- This is part of why I get enraged whenever somebody on Tumblr says “People in Group X need to realize they

This is a great excerpt: -------------------------- This is part of why I get enraged whenever somebody on Tumblr says “People in Group X need to realize they have it really good”, or “You’re a Group X member, so stop pretending like you have real problems.” The town where I practice psychiatry is mostly white and mostly wealthy. That doesn’t save it. And whenever some online thinkpiece writer laughs about how good people in Group X have it and how hilarious it is that they sometimes complain about their lives, it never fails that I have just gotten home from treating a member of Group X who attempted suicide.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
nirmel 11y ago
I'm one of those people who say that almost all people in America have it really good, and everyone should stop complaining. I'm trying to understand why I'm wrong about the following: - Most people in America are struggling - Most people outside America are struggling much, much more, to a degree not fathomable by Americans. - Therefore, people in America should acknowledge they have it really good and stop complaining.
- joesmo 11y ago
  "Most people outside America are struggling much, much more, to a degree not fathomable by Americans." You cannot possibly know the level of anyone's suffering except yourself. How do you know how much people are struggling in or out of America? How do you know people outside America suffer more? How do you compare suffering? You don't. You can't. Even if you did, it wouldn't matter. You're comparing problems as if they were numbers. They're not. They're not comparable. What hurts one person a lot may not hurt another very much and vice-versa. Postulating a thing you cannot possibly know is where you're wrong. Not to mention belittling the problems of millions of Americans by subjecting them to your random judgement.
  - isolate 11y ago
    Cutting someone's head off is not necessarily worse for their friends and family than insulting them?
    - joesmo 11y ago
      I think you replied to the wrong comment.
      - isolate 11y ago
        No, but I probably misread yours if you didn't understand my question. I thought you said different kinds of suffering are incomparable, and so I asked about not being able to compare two specific kinds of suffering, murder and insults. (Or rather, acts that can induce suffering and the suffering that results.)
        joesmo 11y ago
        No, I said you can't compare people's suffering because you can't measure it, regardless of what's causing that suffering.
        lucio 11y ago
        yes you can, a beaten wife is suffering more than a person who gets insulted. Both are suffering, but the wife is in the worst situation.
        isolate 11y ago
        All I'm doing is trying to examine your claim at the extremes. At the other end, are we able to tell the difference between zero suffering and some suffering?
- BobTheCoder 11y ago
  Comparatively good does not mean actually good.
- firebones 11y ago
  I haven't seen your logic nailed specifically as a logical fallacy [1][2], but there's something similar to a logical fallacy involved in the type of argument you're making. Namely, that having it relatively good globally should prevent someone from "complaining" (or seeking to improve their situation) locally. [1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProb... [2] http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=641605 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=641605
  - nirmel 11y ago
    Appreciate your citing this fallacy. We certainly can complain about problems that exist, regardless of their severity, perhaps because they affect us or people we care about. But I think there is a real problem when worrying about one problem comes at the expense of caring about another more severe problem. Contrived thought experiment: You have the magical power of either curing your own toothache, or curing the world of AIDS. You choose to cure your toothache because it affects you. I would argue you should have considered the alternative. The problem is not that you can't care about problems that are less severe than others, but given finite availability of "care" in your own mind and in the world, it is better to direct our "care" to where it can have the biggest impact.
    - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
      You have much better information and much better leverage to attack problems in your own life than those in, say, Sub-Saharan Africa. Plus, there's all the ways that you're a more effective altruist if you aren't distracted by a toothache, or aren't malnourished because you donated your entire food budget.
    - firebones 11y ago
      I see where you're going, but "magical powers" take this so far into the realm of hypothetical that I don't think we can use it as a basis for argument. But let me allow it, and move it to the real of practicality. Based on the skills and resources I now have, the contribution I can now make with my skills and resources (the "magical powers" at my disposal) would only fractionally help cure AIDS. At best, I might be able to supply a certain number of people with life-extending HIV meds by contributing all my assets and future income. And why AIDS versus a hundred other maladies where my entire wealth and income improves and extends lives? Or does balancing the ability to build capital effectively come into play? Would we be better off with the issues the Gates Foundation is tackling if Bill Gates had decided to spend all his time from 1975 forward working with an NGO trying to eradicate malaria and polio? Or getting in a position where he focused on first world problems so that he could address some global issues? I appreciate your concern--but "care" isn't necessarily a point in time measurement or a zero sum game--it's possible to care about multiple things at once, and it's possible to care proportionately more as means allow. (And in many cases, it might be more efficient to do so.)
- jodrellblank 11y ago
  People in America should stop complaining ... and then what? You acknowledge that Americans have actual, real problems. What is your plan for after Americans stop complaining about their problems? What does that achieve? What happens next? Why is that a desirable future state that you want to encourage?
- mbrock 11y ago
  You use the word "therefore" as if you had presented a syllogism, but for an actual solid argument you need to explain how the conclusion follows from the premises. Presumably you are making use of a principle that implies that the existence of people suffering more than you means that your suffering is lessened. That can be disputed, but you haven't even argued for it yet.
- aaronem 11y ago
  The reasoning you present here is exactly equivalent to: - You have a broken arm - Somewhere else in the world, someone has stage IV pancreatic cancer - Therefore your broken arm should be of no concern even to you The flaw should be intuitively obvious, especially to anyone who's ever had a broken arm. But hey, you actually concede you're a robot in your HN profile, your hyperalloy combat chassis is no doubt proof against such mishaps, and why should anyone expect you to understand or care what humans feel?
- Gibbon1 11y ago
  I think some of this can be summed up in the phrase paycheck to paycheck. People in that situation have to keep running or they fall down. The other is while the US is wealthier than a lot of other places the interpersonal support networks are generally threadbare.
markmcdonald 11y ago
I want to defend the "thinkpiece writers" a little bit. I agree that you can't judge someone because they're part of Group X. Its impossible to know what struggles a person goes through. But, at least a few of the thinkpiece writers I've seen are commenting on how Group X uses their privilege to discredit the struggles Group Y or Z has experienced because of Group X. Laughing "about how good people in Group X have it and how hilarious it is that they sometimes complain about their lives" is taking it too far, but I've seen something very similar to the above excerpt used to discredit the very real, systemic struggle of minorities. That makes me cringe. I'm in favor of being empathic to everyone's humanity and not discrediting anyone's struggle.
- scarmig 11y ago
  Scott (the author) is using "thinkpiece writers" a bit equivocably, I think, with the latter usage being his hobby horse of attacking left wing social justice activists. His counterpoint to you, which I would say has some traction, would likely be that those thinkpiece writers are deploying constructs like "privilege" as a way to discredit the very real struggle of people in groups that don't fall under the accepted rubric of privileged and oppressed, for the very reason that their issues' existence is either ignored or defined out of the category of "systemic oppression." Most everyone is "in favor of being empathic to everyone's humanity and not discrediting anyone's struggle," but as humans everyone seems to have a hard time putting that principle into practice.
  - markmcdonald 11y ago
    > His counterpoint to you, which I would say has some traction, would likely be that those thinkpiece writers are deploying constructs like "privilege" as a way to discredit the very real struggle of people in groups that don't fall under the accepted rubric of privileged and oppressed, for the very reason that their issues' existence is either ignored or defined out of the category of "systemic oppression." This is a good point. Its tough when being candid about the struggles of one group discredits the struggle of another. Honesty is important, but not invalidating someone's hardship is also important.
  - 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

nirmel 11y ago

I'm one of those people who say that almost all people in America have it really good, and everyone should stop complaining. I'm trying to understand why I'm wrong about the following: - Most people in America are struggling - Most people outside America are struggling much, much more, to a degree not fathomable by Americans. - Therefore, people in America should acknowledge they have it really good and stop complaining.

joesmo 11y ago
"Most people outside America are struggling much, much more, to a degree not fathomable by Americans." You cannot possibly know the level of anyone's suffering except yourself. How do you know how much people are struggling in or out of America? How do you know people outside America suffer more? How do you compare suffering? You don't. You can't. Even if you did, it wouldn't matter. You're comparing problems as if they were numbers. They're not. They're not comparable. What hurts one person a lot may not hurt another very much and vice-versa. Postulating a thing you cannot possibly know is where you're wrong. Not to mention belittling the problems of millions of Americans by subjecting them to your random judgement.
- isolate 11y ago
  Cutting someone's head off is not necessarily worse for their friends and family than insulting them?
  - joesmo 11y ago
    I think you replied to the wrong comment.
    - isolate 11y ago
      No, but I probably misread yours if you didn't understand my question. I thought you said different kinds of suffering are incomparable, and so I asked about not being able to compare two specific kinds of suffering, murder and insults. (Or rather, acts that can induce suffering and the suffering that results.)
      - joesmo 11y ago
        No, I said you can't compare people's suffering because you can't measure it, regardless of what's causing that suffering.
        lucio 11y ago
        yes you can, a beaten wife is suffering more than a person who gets insulted. Both are suffering, but the wife is in the worst situation.
        isolate 11y ago
        All I'm doing is trying to examine your claim at the extremes. At the other end, are we able to tell the difference between zero suffering and some suffering?
BobTheCoder 11y ago
Comparatively good does not mean actually good.
firebones 11y ago
I haven't seen your logic nailed specifically as a logical fallacy [1][2], but there's something similar to a logical fallacy involved in the type of argument you're making. Namely, that having it relatively good globally should prevent someone from "complaining" (or seeking to improve their situation) locally. [1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProb... [2] http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=641605 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=641605
- nirmel 11y ago
  Appreciate your citing this fallacy. We certainly can complain about problems that exist, regardless of their severity, perhaps because they affect us or people we care about. But I think there is a real problem when worrying about one problem comes at the expense of caring about another more severe problem. Contrived thought experiment: You have the magical power of either curing your own toothache, or curing the world of AIDS. You choose to cure your toothache because it affects you. I would argue you should have considered the alternative. The problem is not that you can't care about problems that are less severe than others, but given finite availability of "care" in your own mind and in the world, it is better to direct our "care" to where it can have the biggest impact.
  - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
    You have much better information and much better leverage to attack problems in your own life than those in, say, Sub-Saharan Africa. Plus, there's all the ways that you're a more effective altruist if you aren't distracted by a toothache, or aren't malnourished because you donated your entire food budget.
  - firebones 11y ago
    I see where you're going, but "magical powers" take this so far into the realm of hypothetical that I don't think we can use it as a basis for argument. But let me allow it, and move it to the real of practicality. Based on the skills and resources I now have, the contribution I can now make with my skills and resources (the "magical powers" at my disposal) would only fractionally help cure AIDS. At best, I might be able to supply a certain number of people with life-extending HIV meds by contributing all my assets and future income. And why AIDS versus a hundred other maladies where my entire wealth and income improves and extends lives? Or does balancing the ability to build capital effectively come into play? Would we be better off with the issues the Gates Foundation is tackling if Bill Gates had decided to spend all his time from 1975 forward working with an NGO trying to eradicate malaria and polio? Or getting in a position where he focused on first world problems so that he could address some global issues? I appreciate your concern--but "care" isn't necessarily a point in time measurement or a zero sum game--it's possible to care about multiple things at once, and it's possible to care proportionately more as means allow. (And in many cases, it might be more efficient to do so.)
jodrellblank 11y ago
People in America should stop complaining ... and then what? You acknowledge that Americans have actual, real problems. What is your plan for after Americans stop complaining about their problems? What does that achieve? What happens next? Why is that a desirable future state that you want to encourage?
mbrock 11y ago
You use the word "therefore" as if you had presented a syllogism, but for an actual solid argument you need to explain how the conclusion follows from the premises. Presumably you are making use of a principle that implies that the existence of people suffering more than you means that your suffering is lessened. That can be disputed, but you haven't even argued for it yet.
aaronem 11y ago
The reasoning you present here is exactly equivalent to: - You have a broken arm - Somewhere else in the world, someone has stage IV pancreatic cancer - Therefore your broken arm should be of no concern even to you The flaw should be intuitively obvious, especially to anyone who's ever had a broken arm. But hey, you actually concede you're a robot in your HN profile, your hyperalloy combat chassis is no doubt proof against such mishaps, and why should anyone expect you to understand or care what humans feel?
Gibbon1 11y ago
I think some of this can be summed up in the phrase paycheck to paycheck. People in that situation have to keep running or they fall down. The other is while the US is wealthier than a lot of other places the interpersonal support networks are generally threadbare.

markmcdonald 11y ago

I want to defend the "thinkpiece writers" a little bit. I agree that you can't judge someone because they're part of Group X. Its impossible to know what struggles a person goes through. But, at least a few of the thinkpiece writers I've seen are commenting on how Group X uses their privilege to discredit the struggles Group Y or Z has experienced because of Group X. Laughing "about how good people in Group X have it and how hilarious it is that they sometimes complain about their lives" is taking it too far, but I've seen something very similar to the above excerpt used to discredit the very real, systemic struggle of minorities. That makes me cringe. I'm in favor of being empathic to everyone's humanity and not discrediting anyone's struggle.

scarmig 11y ago
Scott (the author) is using "thinkpiece writers" a bit equivocably, I think, with the latter usage being his hobby horse of attacking left wing social justice activists. His counterpoint to you, which I would say has some traction, would likely be that those thinkpiece writers are deploying constructs like "privilege" as a way to discredit the very real struggle of people in groups that don't fall under the accepted rubric of privileged and oppressed, for the very reason that their issues' existence is either ignored or defined out of the category of "systemic oppression." Most everyone is "in favor of being empathic to everyone's humanity and not discrediting anyone's struggle," but as humans everyone seems to have a hard time putting that principle into practice.
- markmcdonald 11y ago
  > His counterpoint to you, which I would say has some traction, would likely be that those thinkpiece writers are deploying constructs like "privilege" as a way to discredit the very real struggle of people in groups that don't fall under the accepted rubric of privileged and oppressed, for the very reason that their issues' existence is either ignored or defined out of the category of "systemic oppression." This is a good point. Its tough when being candid about the struggles of one group discredits the struggle of another. Honesty is important, but not invalidating someone's hardship is also important.
- 11y ago