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> I mean it literally shows how copying something makes it worthless. How's that? If the same copies were legally bought they would have had value, but now tha

> I mean it literally shows how copying something makes it worthless. How's that? If the same copies were legally bought they would have had value, but now that they are illegally created they are worthless? Is it the law that gives them value, instead of something intrinsic? Is value the same thing as cost?

crimsonalucard 11y ago
It's an intrinsic property. There's a academic field called economics which describes this property. The property is famously known as the law of supply and demand. If you take a product and increase the demand the price goes up. If you increase the supply the price goes down. If you make a billion copies of the product the price would go down to near zero.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  How can it be intrinsic if it's determined by external factors like supply and demand? And if value is determined by cost, how come people still want it when it's free?
  - crimsonalucard 11y ago
    >How can it be intrinsic if it's determined by external factors like supply and demand? Well it depends on how you interpret the word intrinsic. You were inquiring about how written law could influence value, I was responding by saying value isn't determined by some made up law written by humans, it's determined by laws intrinsic to economics: The law of supply and demand. >And if value is determined by cost, When did I say value is determined by cost? Cost is only an indirect contributor. Value itself is determined by supply and demand. >how come people still want it when it's free? If something is free, it doesn't change how much people want the product. Value does not influence Demand. It is the otherway around: Supply and demand influence value. Thus whether I charge a billion dollars or zero dollars for the oxygen you breath, you'll still want it as much as you did before regardless of the value.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      > Supply and demand influence value. Thus whether I charge a billion dollars or zero dollars for the oxygen you breath, you'll still want it as much as you did before regardless of the value. The demand for air is much, much smaller than the supply, so by your logic it should have very little value. Yet it has a huge value and no cost. Now you see why I'm saying that market forces influence only the cost and not the value?
      - crimsonalucard 11y ago
        Air has very little value due to excessive supply. If I charged you 50 dollars for a bottle of air would you buy it? No you wouldn't. What if I restricted the supply of air by choking you? Give me $100 dollars and I'll let you breath for ten seconds. Suddenly 10 seconds of air is worth more than $50 dollars. You demand air to survive but how much you pay for air (aka the value of air) depends on me controlling the supply.
        stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        You still don't understand the notions of value and price.
        crimsonalucard 11y ago
        I understand completely. You're the one who lacks the capability to understand.
- AnthonyMouse 11y ago
  But the art project has made a billion copies and yet the market price remains what it was before it started and people are still paying nonzero sums for copies ... ?
  - crimsonalucard 11y ago
    The copies are sent to dev/null and thus the global supply remains unchanged. The project wouldn't be an "art project" if the copies were actually distributed.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      Similar copies are actually distributed in file sharing networks. That's what the art project is pointing to.
      - crimsonalucard 11y ago
        And the file is worth significantly less because of said distribution. Copyright law and the general inaccessibility to these networks is what contributes to limited supply. To a person who is not afraid of the law, is morally ambiguous, and has the technical ability to access said networks, the file is worthless.
        stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        > To a person who is not afraid of the law, is morally ambiguous, and has the technical ability to access said networks, the file is worthless. You must be new to the internet. Millions of people download and read/listen to/watch those files you deem worthless.
        crimsonalucard 11y ago
        You must be new to reality and the concept of using your brain for intelligent analysis rather then assuming the person you're talking to is a total idiot. Here's a foreign concept for you: People can download, read/listen/watch things that are worthless. For example, the air you breath. How much would you pay for it? Nothing. Therefore the air you breath is worthless. Get it? How much you want or need something is different from how much something is worth. You need air for survival more than you need clothes but because the supply of clothes is more limited than air, clothes is worth more than air. It's easy to determine the value of air relative to clothes. If I charge you a dime for the air you breath, I'm ripping you off, if I charge you a dime for a tuxedo, you're ripping me off. Therefore clothes is worth more than air even though people breathe air everyday and need it to survive. In conclusion: To determine how much something is worth you just need to look at how much people are willing to pay for it, not how much they use it. It's the law of Supply and demand.

crimsonalucard 11y ago

It's an intrinsic property. There's a academic field called economics which describes this property. The property is famously known as the law of supply and demand. If you take a product and increase the demand the price goes up. If you increase the supply the price goes down. If you make a billion copies of the product the price would go down to near zero.

stefantalpalaru 11y ago
How can it be intrinsic if it's determined by external factors like supply and demand? And if value is determined by cost, how come people still want it when it's free?
- crimsonalucard 11y ago
  >How can it be intrinsic if it's determined by external factors like supply and demand? Well it depends on how you interpret the word intrinsic. You were inquiring about how written law could influence value, I was responding by saying value isn't determined by some made up law written by humans, it's determined by laws intrinsic to economics: The law of supply and demand. >And if value is determined by cost, When did I say value is determined by cost? Cost is only an indirect contributor. Value itself is determined by supply and demand. >how come people still want it when it's free? If something is free, it doesn't change how much people want the product. Value does not influence Demand. It is the otherway around: Supply and demand influence value. Thus whether I charge a billion dollars or zero dollars for the oxygen you breath, you'll still want it as much as you did before regardless of the value.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    > Supply and demand influence value. Thus whether I charge a billion dollars or zero dollars for the oxygen you breath, you'll still want it as much as you did before regardless of the value. The demand for air is much, much smaller than the supply, so by your logic it should have very little value. Yet it has a huge value and no cost. Now you see why I'm saying that market forces influence only the cost and not the value?
    - crimsonalucard 11y ago
      Air has very little value due to excessive supply. If I charged you 50 dollars for a bottle of air would you buy it? No you wouldn't. What if I restricted the supply of air by choking you? Give me $100 dollars and I'll let you breath for ten seconds. Suddenly 10 seconds of air is worth more than $50 dollars. You demand air to survive but how much you pay for air (aka the value of air) depends on me controlling the supply.
      - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        You still don't understand the notions of value and price.
        crimsonalucard 11y ago
        I understand completely. You're the one who lacks the capability to understand.
AnthonyMouse 11y ago
But the art project has made a billion copies and yet the market price remains what it was before it started and people are still paying nonzero sums for copies ... ?
- crimsonalucard 11y ago
  The copies are sent to dev/null and thus the global supply remains unchanged. The project wouldn't be an "art project" if the copies were actually distributed.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    Similar copies are actually distributed in file sharing networks. That's what the art project is pointing to.
    - crimsonalucard 11y ago
      And the file is worth significantly less because of said distribution. Copyright law and the general inaccessibility to these networks is what contributes to limited supply. To a person who is not afraid of the law, is morally ambiguous, and has the technical ability to access said networks, the file is worthless.
      - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        > To a person who is not afraid of the law, is morally ambiguous, and has the technical ability to access said networks, the file is worthless. You must be new to the internet. Millions of people download and read/listen to/watch those files you deem worthless.
        crimsonalucard 11y ago
        You must be new to reality and the concept of using your brain for intelligent analysis rather then assuming the person you're talking to is a total idiot. Here's a foreign concept for you: People can download, read/listen/watch things that are worthless. For example, the air you breath. How much would you pay for it? Nothing. Therefore the air you breath is worthless. Get it? How much you want or need something is different from how much something is worth. You need air for survival more than you need clothes but because the supply of clothes is more limited than air, clothes is worth more than air. It's easy to determine the value of air relative to clothes. If I charge you a dime for the air you breath, I'm ripping you off, if I charge you a dime for a tuxedo, you're ripping me off. Therefore clothes is worth more than air even though people breathe air everyday and need it to survive. In conclusion: To determine how much something is worth you just need to look at how much people are willing to pay for it, not how much they use it. It's the law of Supply and demand.