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The problem is that in the United States, a college is not a place to learn but rather a finishing school to define to what social class you belong. If you go t

The problem is that in the United States, a college is not a place to learn but rather a finishing school to define to what social class you belong. If you go to the Ivy League, you're a member of the elite. What to do to get there? Curate your entire life to be appealing to a bunch of humanities majors who couldn't get a job other than reading admissions apps. I completely agree with Mr Deresiewicz's characterization of that as "excellent sheep". As a person from the third-world who went to the Ivy League, I am also scornful of America's culture of self-congratulation. When I went to Dartmouth, I remember one of the first things during our orientation was a senior faculty member giving a speech to us telling us all great we all were to be here, how selectively we've been chosen, and all that. I went there to learn, not to learn how cool I am. What rubbish.

brandnewlow 11y ago
Former humanities major who couldn't get a job other than reading admission apps reporting in! There's a veneer of truth in your dig, but ultimately I had very little actual decision making power. Folks fitting your description were there to review applications and summarize them for higher-ups in the org, the deans. When I was there, their main skill was in identifying applicants who fit the admission criteria defined and redefined annually by the Trustees and Faculty of the University. You can make an argument that those people might be looking for the wrong things, but it does sort of upend your point.
walshemj 11y ago
And your point is? in both the USA and the UK (even more so) STEM majors are considered as greasy engineers. Ivy's and Oxbridge are more about forming networks for later life - just as public(UK)/Private(USA) school is. And cultures that fetishize STEM careers have just as many problems - how many kids have been destroyed by tiger parenting or pushed into careers they don't like or have aptitude for.
- epalmer 11y ago
  As a parent my wife and I saw our role with my two girls of exposing them to as much variety and diversity in the early years as I could. Arts, music, robotics, programming, puzzles and so much more. The goal was to help my kids find something to be passionate about. My oldest just graduated with a degree in sociology which is not one of the most employable degrees for an undergraduate. She is working part time in a library and living at home. She was meant to be a librarian and all that know her, know that about her. She has to be get a Masters of Library Science to be a librarian. She will have to put in two or so years at the library she works at to go full time without the MLS. So she stays with us and puts in the time. The good news is that she knows what she wants to do the rest of her life and to be severely dyslexic and be in a library is just awesome. Her mom and I are fine with her living at home till she can be full time since she is a saver and is responsible. And as a person that has had mostly STEM related careers that I have loved, my youngest seems to be moving towards mechanical engineering next year. I love this about her as it warms my STEM heart. Most important is that both seem to have found their passions. If you love your work you will likely be in the flow some and who can ask for more than that out of a career. After building several businesses my current employment gives me the opportunity to do what I love (programming and systems integration) and be in the flow. I could not be happier at work and I want that for my kids. Passion alignment is a great thing. EDIT: And my youngest has some graphic design and art talent which I am sure will help her be a better design engineer. She was in doubt in high school if she should juggle the art and design classes along with her tech speciality center IT classes. We supported the extra work simply for the benefit of her love for creating art and design.
noname123 11y ago
>Curate your entire life to be appealing to a bunch of humanities majors who couldn't get a job other than reading admissions apps. Seconded. Your comment brought me back to having a moment of extreme cringe about when you remember randomly something your older self realize was incredibly immature or stupid when you are in middle school (e.g., "lying to show off to peers on the school bus and thinking you got away with it when it was obvious to everyone else and even yourself now how stupid you were"). I bought completely into the whole "liberal arts" marketing sold by "elite" American college brochures and hung onto the words of admissions officers during tours as they were the gatekeepers of "knowledge" and "enlightenment"; now I realize I was hoodwinked and looked so stupid like I was trying to look cool with Abercrombie & Fitch in middle school. Fast forward 12 years later, now that people whose personal life and flaws I am aware of now have taken posts as diversity officers and admissions officers; I realize what a sham everything is. Not to say that everyone in college admissions is pretentious and superficial but how it's like the marketing dept of a major corporation trying to increase their conversion rate. >I am also scornful of America's culture of self-congratulation Yes unfortunately it never ends. The fakery continues beyond undergrad to ... MBA, Young Ivy Mixers. But I shouldn't be so cynical and negative about some people, should at least give them credit for staying such a "trooper".
- littletimmy 11y ago
  > I bought completely into the whole "liberal arts" marketing sold by "elite" American college Oh brother, this brings back some memories. I also swallowed this "liberal arts = food for soul" bullshit wholesale. Delayed choosing a major because I didn't "find my passion" and ended up getting a lot less out of college than I would've had I gone in with my high school get-shit-done mindset.

brandnewlow 11y ago

Former humanities major who couldn't get a job other than reading admission apps reporting in! There's a veneer of truth in your dig, but ultimately I had very little actual decision making power. Folks fitting your description were there to review applications and summarize them for higher-ups in the org, the deans. When I was there, their main skill was in identifying applicants who fit the admission criteria defined and redefined annually by the Trustees and Faculty of the University. You can make an argument that those people might be looking for the wrong things, but it does sort of upend your point.

walshemj 11y ago

And your point is? in both the USA and the UK (even more so) STEM majors are considered as greasy engineers. Ivy's and Oxbridge are more about forming networks for later life - just as public(UK)/Private(USA) school is. And cultures that fetishize STEM careers have just as many problems - how many kids have been destroyed by tiger parenting or pushed into careers they don't like or have aptitude for.

epalmer 11y ago
As a parent my wife and I saw our role with my two girls of exposing them to as much variety and diversity in the early years as I could. Arts, music, robotics, programming, puzzles and so much more. The goal was to help my kids find something to be passionate about. My oldest just graduated with a degree in sociology which is not one of the most employable degrees for an undergraduate. She is working part time in a library and living at home. She was meant to be a librarian and all that know her, know that about her. She has to be get a Masters of Library Science to be a librarian. She will have to put in two or so years at the library she works at to go full time without the MLS. So she stays with us and puts in the time. The good news is that she knows what she wants to do the rest of her life and to be severely dyslexic and be in a library is just awesome. Her mom and I are fine with her living at home till she can be full time since she is a saver and is responsible. And as a person that has had mostly STEM related careers that I have loved, my youngest seems to be moving towards mechanical engineering next year. I love this about her as it warms my STEM heart. Most important is that both seem to have found their passions. If you love your work you will likely be in the flow some and who can ask for more than that out of a career. After building several businesses my current employment gives me the opportunity to do what I love (programming and systems integration) and be in the flow. I could not be happier at work and I want that for my kids. Passion alignment is a great thing. EDIT: And my youngest has some graphic design and art talent which I am sure will help her be a better design engineer. She was in doubt in high school if she should juggle the art and design classes along with her tech speciality center IT classes. We supported the extra work simply for the benefit of her love for creating art and design.

noname123 11y ago

>Curate your entire life to be appealing to a bunch of humanities majors who couldn't get a job other than reading admissions apps. Seconded. Your comment brought me back to having a moment of extreme cringe about when you remember randomly something your older self realize was incredibly immature or stupid when you are in middle school (e.g., "lying to show off to peers on the school bus and thinking you got away with it when it was obvious to everyone else and even yourself now how stupid you were"). I bought completely into the whole "liberal arts" marketing sold by "elite" American college brochures and hung onto the words of admissions officers during tours as they were the gatekeepers of "knowledge" and "enlightenment"; now I realize I was hoodwinked and looked so stupid like I was trying to look cool with Abercrombie & Fitch in middle school. Fast forward 12 years later, now that people whose personal life and flaws I am aware of now have taken posts as diversity officers and admissions officers; I realize what a sham everything is. Not to say that everyone in college admissions is pretentious and superficial but how it's like the marketing dept of a major corporation trying to increase their conversion rate. >I am also scornful of America's culture of self-congratulation Yes unfortunately it never ends. The fakery continues beyond undergrad to ... MBA, Young Ivy Mixers. But I shouldn't be so cynical and negative about some people, should at least give them credit for staying such a "trooper".

littletimmy 11y ago
> I bought completely into the whole "liberal arts" marketing sold by "elite" American college Oh brother, this brings back some memories. I also swallowed this "liberal arts = food for soul" bullshit wholesale. Delayed choosing a major because I didn't "find my passion" and ended up getting a lot less out of college than I would've had I gone in with my high school get-shit-done mindset.