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I've never seriously used any BSD, but I do have to admit I like that things don't change for the sake of change, as seems to happen on Linux every couple of ye

I've never seriously used any BSD, but I do have to admit I like that things don't change for the sake of change, as seems to happen on Linux every couple of years. With OpenBSD, docs from 10 years ago are generally workable, because nothing on the user side has changed. That's got some definite benefits. I've been using Linux as my primary OS for 20 years, as of this year (which is, coincidentally about as long as OpenBSD has been around), and I don't feel significantly more "on top of" the OS than I did 10 or even 15 years ago. On many fronts, I'm further behind, because I have so much less free time, and there's so much more to a Linux system. And, so much has changed. That said, there's a bunch of trade-offs. Virtualization on OpenBSD is, as far as I can tell, effectively a non-starter for any major project (i.e. those with many VMs, a virtual network, virtual disks, etc.). Containers seem to not exist, at all, though I found some historic mentions of jail-based options. It seems like a perfect candidate for a VM or container guest OS, due to security focus, small size, simple deployment, etc. But, you then have to have two sets of skills: Managing your guest operating system, and managing your host operating system. Since Linux is the strongest container or VM hosting OS on the server (this was once debatable when Solaris Zones was new and Linux was still somewhat immature on the container front, but I don't think anyone would make the case that Linux isn't the obvious choice for hosting VMs or containers in most deployments today), and Linux is pretty far away from OpenBSD, you've got two pretty widely divergent skill sets needed. Nonetheless, every time I read about OpenBSD, I feel a strong urge to give it a try. It seems extremely elegant in the way old UNIX systems were elegant. It appeals to me on a lot of fronts. Also, the code and documentation are extremely readable, in ways I've rarely seen elsewhere (FreeBSD also meets this description, but it's so much bigger it can still be daunting). I wonder if anyone is working on a Zones port to any BSD? OpenBSD with a convincing container or virtualization story would be a tipping point for me, in terms of being willing to put in the effort to learn it and use it.

empthought 11y ago
As far as I know, zones are essentially a port of FreeBSD jails in the first place.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  That's not accurate.
  - empthought 11y ago
    I suppose not; it's not as if they copied and pasted the jail code, merely cited it as prior art in describing their own implementation. Nevertheless, jails have been the BSD "container story" for over fifteen years.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      And, it is not a convincing one. Being old does not make it competitive.
      - empthought 11y ago
        Haven't you already disqualified yourself from being able to make that judgment? ("I've never seriously used any BSD.") Being old does give it a long history of successful use. Jails are exactly what Docker for FreeBSD uses for its containers; I'm not sure what more you'd be looking for in a container system, if lxc is something you'll mention in a positive light.
qbrass 11y ago
They're working on their own VM system. http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man4/amd64/vmm.4 http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man4/...
rjsw 11y ago
NetBSD can act as both a Xen host and guest.
insaneirish 11y ago
> Since Linux is the strongest container or VM hosting OS on the server pause for laughter Join us: https://smartos.org https://smartos.org
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  My comments were sincere, and from a place of familiarity with and appreciation for Zones. Joyent is great, SmartOS looks cool, and we've worked with and supported Zones in our products longer than anybody that I know of (Sun paid Jamie to add Zones support to Webmin back when Zones was in development; it goes way back). Heck, I don't think any of our big competitors even support Zones (and I know why: nobody's buying Zones support...we have at least 100+ times more Linux users). I'm on your team, when it comes to talking nice about Zones. Great technology, that was many years ahead of Linux. But, be real here. Linux likely sees more contributions in a month than SmartOS has had in its whole existence. The size and scope of the ecosystem is just vastly different. Most people have never even heard of SmartOS. And, Linux has caught up. It's always been a leader on full virtualization (Xen was developed first for Linux, after all), but it's also now got several great container options, including core kernel support than runs deep. There's not much you can do with SmartOS that you can't do with Linux today; and, the reverse is not true. Don't get me wrong: SmartOS seems really cool, and I want to spend some time with it in the near future. We've always had a soft spot for Solaris (despite not selling a lot to Solaris users, since they're so vastly outnumbered by Linux users), and there's no one I can imagine better for the task of pushing it forward than Joyent.
jlgaddis 11y ago
OpenBSD typically doesn't make major changes within a single release (e.g. 5.8), but major changes certainly do happen from one release to the next (e.g. 5.7 to 5.8). A couple of recent examples that come to mind include the removal of sendmail, removal of Apache, addition of OpenSMTPd, addition of their own httpd, replacing sudo with doas, etc. You definitely want to read the release notes before upgrading or switching to a new version!

empthought 11y ago

As far as I know, zones are essentially a port of FreeBSD jails in the first place.

SwellJoe 11y ago
That's not accurate.
- empthought 11y ago
  I suppose not; it's not as if they copied and pasted the jail code, merely cited it as prior art in describing their own implementation. Nevertheless, jails have been the BSD "container story" for over fifteen years.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    And, it is not a convincing one. Being old does not make it competitive.
    - empthought 11y ago
      Haven't you already disqualified yourself from being able to make that judgment? ("I've never seriously used any BSD.") Being old does give it a long history of successful use. Jails are exactly what Docker for FreeBSD uses for its containers; I'm not sure what more you'd be looking for in a container system, if lxc is something you'll mention in a positive light.

qbrass 11y ago

They're working on their own VM system. http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man4/amd64/vmm.4 http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man4/...

rjsw 11y ago

NetBSD can act as both a Xen host and guest.

insaneirish 11y ago

> Since Linux is the strongest container or VM hosting OS on the server pause for laughter Join us: https://smartos.org https://smartos.org

SwellJoe 11y ago
My comments were sincere, and from a place of familiarity with and appreciation for Zones. Joyent is great, SmartOS looks cool, and we've worked with and supported Zones in our products longer than anybody that I know of (Sun paid Jamie to add Zones support to Webmin back when Zones was in development; it goes way back). Heck, I don't think any of our big competitors even support Zones (and I know why: nobody's buying Zones support...we have at least 100+ times more Linux users). I'm on your team, when it comes to talking nice about Zones. Great technology, that was many years ahead of Linux. But, be real here. Linux likely sees more contributions in a month than SmartOS has had in its whole existence. The size and scope of the ecosystem is just vastly different. Most people have never even heard of SmartOS. And, Linux has caught up. It's always been a leader on full virtualization (Xen was developed first for Linux, after all), but it's also now got several great container options, including core kernel support than runs deep. There's not much you can do with SmartOS that you can't do with Linux today; and, the reverse is not true. Don't get me wrong: SmartOS seems really cool, and I want to spend some time with it in the near future. We've always had a soft spot for Solaris (despite not selling a lot to Solaris users, since they're so vastly outnumbered by Linux users), and there's no one I can imagine better for the task of pushing it forward than Joyent.

jlgaddis 11y ago

OpenBSD typically doesn't make major changes within a single release (e.g. 5.8), but major changes certainly do happen from one release to the next (e.g. 5.7 to 5.8). A couple of recent examples that come to mind include the removal of sendmail, removal of Apache, addition of OpenSMTPd, addition of their own httpd, replacing sudo with doas, etc. You definitely want to read the release notes before upgrading or switching to a new version!