5 ms·

This and other developments around computer security and usability "for the everyman" worry me for two reasons. First, they're taking away the "hard edges" fro

by aftbit 11y ago

This and other developments around computer security and usability "for the everyman" worry me for two reasons. First, they're taking away the "hard edges" from the system and helping create a generation of computer users who don't know how to tinker, how the inner bits work, or how to take responsibility for their own actions. If they download a virus, that's somehow Apple's fault for not developing a secure enough system. If they use an emoticon in their only root account password with FileVault enabled, it's Apple's fault that they are now locked out of their machine. Second, and more worryingly, this works towards the "appification" of computers. The user's freedom to run whatever software they want on the desktop is a powerful check against the walled garden "app store" model where a central group (i.e. Apple) is responsible for determining what you're allowed to do. That's bad for innovation and freedom. The famous Apple 1984 ad feels more ironic every year.

pdkl95 11y ago
Exactly. Apple is responsible for a huge loss of freedom in the War On General Purpose Computing. This "appification" is exactly what Cory Doctorow was talking about in his famous essay[1]. We are already beginning to see some of the nastier effects that we warned about[2] with, for example, John Deere's attempt to retain ownership[3]. Apologists will complain that you can turn of SIP (or jailbreak your phone) to regain control over your computer, but that isn't possible for most people. Installing certain types of software went from "run the installer" to "follow these complicated technical instructions" (or worse). What I find more worrying is how easily technical people are fooled into supporting this loss of freedom. Scream "security" and suddenly it's ok for Apple to have root but not the supposed "owner" of the device? Of course, they know how to disable the restrictions or install a jailbreak, so these problems don't apply to the technological priesthood - it's normal people that have to live with the restrictions. Well, this hubris will not last - once Apple can starts using the new Trusted Computing[4] features on new CPUs (such as SGX[5]), good luck regaining control. It would be nice if more people actually bothered thinking about long-term consequences. [1] http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypRYpVKc5Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypRYpVKc5Y [3] http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/ http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/ [4] one example: http://i.imgur.com/rjbzWyB.jpg http://i.imgur.com/rjbzWyB.jpg [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10754170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10754170
- 2trill2spill 11y ago
  If a user can't turn off SIP they probably shouldn't turn off SIP, SIP is great for the vast majority of users ie normal users, and for those who don't want SIP it's easy to turn off. Basically I'm saying only technical people should be turning SIP off. Note, that I'm biased for SIP because I'm implementing it for FreeBSD, even though I know I will be turning it off because SIP impedes my fuzzer development.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    > Basically I'm saying only technical people should be turning SIP off. No, you're saying only technical people are allowed to use a General Purpose Computer, and everyone should use an appliance. You might want to consider what side you're fighting for in the War On General Purpose Computing.
    - 2trill2spill 11y ago
      Why would a person turn off a feature they don't understand? Besides the only people who have issues with or even know what SIP is, are technical people. The average mac osx user doesn't even know about the hidden directories that SIP is protecting or what dtrace even is. If apple made it so SIP could not be turned off I would be with you on this, but you can turn off SIP. Also what war on general computing? If a person want's full control of their operating system they can use one of the free open source ones like FreeBSD, one of the thousands of Linux distros, illumos, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc, etc.
      - pdkl95 11y ago
        This doesn't have a damn thing to do with dtrace. This is about Apple asserting that they own your computer, de facto, not you. Assumptions you're making: * That the ability to disable SIP will always be available, forever, even though Apple has incentives to continue making their products more an "applicance" and less a "computer". I already said there are hardware features in new CPUs that are specifically designed to make that impossible. (see previous [5]) * That SIP will continue, forever into the future, to protect only those hidden directories. * That Apple always knows what is better for the user, and won't exploit that power. > turned off Why is it that any time someone starts grabbing for power, there are always people that say we should ignore it because there is some workaround, or it's only an insignificant amount of power? Power is accumulated in small steps, with the hope that nobody notices until iti is too late. As an analogy, you might say that I'm warning you that someone seems to be placing some gas cans around your property, and you might want to stop them before they decide to light a match. Meanwhile, you (and quite a few other people) are saying it's no big deal because you can just step over those gas cans - they aren't blocking the walkway much. Apple is taking your root access away, and you're fine with it. They are saying that they de facto own your computer, not you. Yet you're fine with it. > Also what war on general computing? I'm somewhat shocked. All I can say is you have quite a bit of catching up to do. For the answer to that question, see my previous [1] and [2]. For [1], I linked to Doctorow's essay, but he links to his original lecture at 28C3 if you prefer. That lecture introduces the War, while [2] continues with a discussion of why we need to solve this problem now, as the ramifications extend much further than Apple and the ability to gain root. Again, you might want to think long and hard about the long-term consequences of giving up root access to Apple. Security can be provided for the user without handing control over to Apple.
userbinator 11y ago
If they download a virus, that's somehow Apple's fault for not developing a secure enough system. If they use an emoticon in their only root account password with FileVault enabled, it's Apple's fault that they are now locked out of their machine. To (rather awkwardly) paraphrase an old proverb: Protect users from doing potentially risky things one day, and the next day they'll complain when they screw up; let them make mistakes, and they'll continue to learn from them. Thus my disappointment at the "users will never learn, we've been trying for years, so might as well mollycoddle and protect, but not try to teach them" argument that gets brought up so often. It took centuries for basic literacy to become prevalent; perhaps we shouldn't think computer literacy would come so quickly and cripple this learning process in the name of security.
- 2trill2spill 11y ago
  > perhaps we shouldn't think computer literacy would come so quickly and cripple this learning process in the name of security. What about SIP stops a person from learning computer literacy? Also huge numbers of people want nothing to do with computers beyond their immediate tasks like email, browsers, etc.
- chc 11y ago
  Illiterate people weren't required to read books all day to function in society, and trying to read a book and failing would not usually lead to one's life being ruined. The same is not true for computers. Computer security is much more important than book security — and even in the case of literacy, writers of safety-critical documents take pains to ensure that readers will understand important parts rather than tossing out impenetrable and ambiguous prose and telling readers to up their literacy if that's a problem.
  - userbinator 11y ago
    Books are not the only things that people read "to function in society", and failing to read some other things can "lead to one's life being ruined".
yuhong 11y ago
To be honest, Windows had WFP since Win2000 though, though it didn't do everything that SIP does.
saurik 11y ago
> If they use an emoticon in their only root account password with FileVault enabled, it's Apple's fault that they are now locked out of their machine. Ok, so: if you look into who I am, you can rest guaranteed that I agree with your overall point and conclusion... but this amazingly-very-real?!?[1] emoji scenario you've described is absolutely "Apple's fault"... if Apple lets me type an emoticon into that password field, it had better well support it reasonably :/. This is a legitimate screw up in the abstraction provided by Apple, not an unavoidable tradeoff in the reality of using a computer. [1]: http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/202143/i-included-emoji-in-my-password-and-now-i-cant-log-in-to-my-account-on-yosemite http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/202143/i-included-e...
astral303 11y ago
Your entire hard edges paragraph: IMO, this attitude is exactly what's wrong with the software industry. We need to fight the arrogant nerd tyranny of "computer literacy." The company that consistently respects the humanity of their users will wipe out many a competitor.

by aftbit 11y ago

pdkl95 11y ago

Exactly. Apple is responsible for a huge loss of freedom in the War On General Purpose Computing. This "appification" is exactly what Cory Doctorow was talking about in his famous essay[1]. We are already beginning to see some of the nastier effects that we warned about[2] with, for example, John Deere's attempt to retain ownership[3]. Apologists will complain that you can turn of SIP (or jailbreak your phone) to regain control over your computer, but that isn't possible for most people. Installing certain types of software went from "run the installer" to "follow these complicated technical instructions" (or worse). What I find more worrying is how easily technical people are fooled into supporting this loss of freedom. Scream "security" and suddenly it's ok for Apple to have root but not the supposed "owner" of the device? Of course, they know how to disable the restrictions or install a jailbreak, so these problems don't apply to the technological priesthood - it's normal people that have to live with the restrictions. Well, this hubris will not last - once Apple can starts using the new Trusted Computing[4] features on new CPUs (such as SGX[5]), good luck regaining control. It would be nice if more people actually bothered thinking about long-term consequences. [1] http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypRYpVKc5Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypRYpVKc5Y [3] http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/ http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/ [4] one example: http://i.imgur.com/rjbzWyB.jpg http://i.imgur.com/rjbzWyB.jpg [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10754170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10754170

2trill2spill 11y ago
If a user can't turn off SIP they probably shouldn't turn off SIP, SIP is great for the vast majority of users ie normal users, and for those who don't want SIP it's easy to turn off. Basically I'm saying only technical people should be turning SIP off. Note, that I'm biased for SIP because I'm implementing it for FreeBSD, even though I know I will be turning it off because SIP impedes my fuzzer development.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  > Basically I'm saying only technical people should be turning SIP off. No, you're saying only technical people are allowed to use a General Purpose Computer, and everyone should use an appliance. You might want to consider what side you're fighting for in the War On General Purpose Computing.
  - 2trill2spill 11y ago
    Why would a person turn off a feature they don't understand? Besides the only people who have issues with or even know what SIP is, are technical people. The average mac osx user doesn't even know about the hidden directories that SIP is protecting or what dtrace even is. If apple made it so SIP could not be turned off I would be with you on this, but you can turn off SIP. Also what war on general computing? If a person want's full control of their operating system they can use one of the free open source ones like FreeBSD, one of the thousands of Linux distros, illumos, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc, etc.
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      This doesn't have a damn thing to do with dtrace. This is about Apple asserting that they own your computer, de facto, not you. Assumptions you're making: * That the ability to disable SIP will always be available, forever, even though Apple has incentives to continue making their products more an "applicance" and less a "computer". I already said there are hardware features in new CPUs that are specifically designed to make that impossible. (see previous [5]) * That SIP will continue, forever into the future, to protect only those hidden directories. * That Apple always knows what is better for the user, and won't exploit that power. > turned off Why is it that any time someone starts grabbing for power, there are always people that say we should ignore it because there is some workaround, or it's only an insignificant amount of power? Power is accumulated in small steps, with the hope that nobody notices until iti is too late. As an analogy, you might say that I'm warning you that someone seems to be placing some gas cans around your property, and you might want to stop them before they decide to light a match. Meanwhile, you (and quite a few other people) are saying it's no big deal because you can just step over those gas cans - they aren't blocking the walkway much. Apple is taking your root access away, and you're fine with it. They are saying that they de facto own your computer, not you. Yet you're fine with it. > Also what war on general computing? I'm somewhat shocked. All I can say is you have quite a bit of catching up to do. For the answer to that question, see my previous [1] and [2]. For [1], I linked to Doctorow's essay, but he links to his original lecture at 28C3 if you prefer. That lecture introduces the War, while [2] continues with a discussion of why we need to solve this problem now, as the ramifications extend much further than Apple and the ability to gain root. Again, you might want to think long and hard about the long-term consequences of giving up root access to Apple. Security can be provided for the user without handing control over to Apple.

userbinator 11y ago

If they download a virus, that's somehow Apple's fault for not developing a secure enough system. If they use an emoticon in their only root account password with FileVault enabled, it's Apple's fault that they are now locked out of their machine. To (rather awkwardly) paraphrase an old proverb: Protect users from doing potentially risky things one day, and the next day they'll complain when they screw up; let them make mistakes, and they'll continue to learn from them. Thus my disappointment at the "users will never learn, we've been trying for years, so might as well mollycoddle and protect, but not try to teach them" argument that gets brought up so often. It took centuries for basic literacy to become prevalent; perhaps we shouldn't think computer literacy would come so quickly and cripple this learning process in the name of security.

2trill2spill 11y ago
> perhaps we shouldn't think computer literacy would come so quickly and cripple this learning process in the name of security. What about SIP stops a person from learning computer literacy? Also huge numbers of people want nothing to do with computers beyond their immediate tasks like email, browsers, etc.
chc 11y ago
Illiterate people weren't required to read books all day to function in society, and trying to read a book and failing would not usually lead to one's life being ruined. The same is not true for computers. Computer security is much more important than book security — and even in the case of literacy, writers of safety-critical documents take pains to ensure that readers will understand important parts rather than tossing out impenetrable and ambiguous prose and telling readers to up their literacy if that's a problem.
- userbinator 11y ago
  Books are not the only things that people read "to function in society", and failing to read some other things can "lead to one's life being ruined".

yuhong 11y ago

To be honest, Windows had WFP since Win2000 though, though it didn't do everything that SIP does.

saurik 11y ago

> If they use an emoticon in their only root account password with FileVault enabled, it's Apple's fault that they are now locked out of their machine. Ok, so: if you look into who I am, you can rest guaranteed that I agree with your overall point and conclusion... but this amazingly-very-real?!?[1] emoji scenario you've described is absolutely "Apple's fault"... if Apple lets me type an emoticon into that password field, it had better well support it reasonably :/. This is a legitimate screw up in the abstraction provided by Apple, not an unavoidable tradeoff in the reality of using a computer. [1]: http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/202143/i-included-emoji-in-my-password-and-now-i-cant-log-in-to-my-account-on-yosemite http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/202143/i-included-e...

astral303 11y ago

Your entire hard edges paragraph: IMO, this attitude is exactly what's wrong with the software industry. We need to fight the arrogant nerd tyranny of "computer literacy." The company that consistently respects the humanity of their users will wipe out many a competitor.