4 ms·

The TSA scanners are presented to the public as a tool for detecting weapons and other contraband, but I think this is actually a secondary goal and a bit of mi

The TSA scanners are presented to the public as a tool for detecting weapons and other contraband, but I think this is actually a secondary goal and a bit of misdirection. Think about what those scans actually are. They're biometrics. They take precise measurements of a person's shape, which is sufficient to detect if someone is traveling under a false name, and they're building a database of those biometrics to have available for use elsewhere. If the scan's result is ambiguous, they swab your hands and stick the swab in a machine, supposedly to detect residue from explosives but with the nice side-effect of producing a stored DNA sample for later use. They've proven pretty useless for controlling the flow of contraband, but they're quite useful for catching fugitives. While the people staffing the checkpoints aren't particularly smart, it's reasonable to assume that the people at the top are pretty clever, and their policies are consistent with this having been the real goal all along. If they tried collecting fingerprints from travelers, they would get a very strong backlash. This way, they get a weaker backlash and some jokes about how stupid they are for using machines that can't reliably detect guns.

imroot 11y ago
They do collect fingerprints from travelers -- TSA PreCheck -- but it's 100% opt-in.
- ninjin 11y ago
  Unless you are a not a US citizen of course, then you will have your fingerprints taken regardless.
xs 11y ago
But it specifically says in DHS document: TSA does not store any personally identifiable information from AIT screening.
- delinka 11y ago
  How have they defined "personally identifiable information?"
- Zikes 11y ago
  http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/feds-admit-stored-body-scanner-images-tsa-claim-images-saved-article-1.200279 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/feds-admit-stored-b...
- cgearhart 11y ago
  This isn't as strong a statement as it seems. It doesn't say that the machines themselves don't store PII, or that "AIT screening does not result in any permanent record of PII". There have been cases of body scans leaking (if I recall, the vendor was recording the scans within machines used by the US Marshals).
- jimrandomh 11y ago
  This could just mean that all PII is handed off to another agency before it is stored. The NSA pulled similar shenanigans with public statements about their bulk data collection.
dopamean 11y ago
> they're building a database of those biometrics Where did you get this information from?
- milge 11y ago
  Reading between the lines? A massive data center in Utah?
seiji 11y ago
Security checkpoints don't combine identifying information with the order you go through security. If you had to scan your boarding pass before entering the scanner, that would be different, but... you don't. So, unless they are using face recognition to scan you when you get your boarding pass checked then re-compare it at the rapiscan, there's no PII gathering happening. (Now, they could always make a policy change and say "now you must tag your boarding pass on the scanner before entering" but we're not there yet.)
- leesalminen 11y ago
  My boarding pass has been scanned by a machine with a cat5 coming out the back at DIA, LGA, JFK, ORD, MDW, PHL and DFW this year. This happens at the podium when presenting ID and boarding pass. Although not directly at the time of scanning video surveillance shouldn't make it too hard to match the records up.
  - seiji 11y ago
    Yes, but after that, you enter a queue of maybe a dozen people in no specific order to actually go through the scanner. They could pool results saying "these 10 scans are potentially from these 40 people" and cross reference against every airport visit, but are they that competent?
    - dozzie 11y ago
      You don't want to rely on them being incompetent, because you may end up with your hand deep down the toilet when they become smart enough. Now you only rely on incompetence alone, and that is quite easy to change.
sjg007 11y ago
I'd rather submit to a retinal scan then be xrayed.
wraithm112 11y ago
The problem with this theory, as I see it, is identity. When you go through the body scan, they don't ask for your identification. Yes, they ask for ID before going to the security line, but there's a very difficult combinatorial problem with lining up IDs with bodyscans. Also, I'm inclined to believe that the TSA is incompetent all the way up.
- jimrandomh 11y ago
  This objection seems... naive? Taking an engineering mindset, matching up people and scans doesn't seem like a very hard problem. The checkpoint areas are blanketed in cameras, so face recognition is one possibility. Or, an easier solution would be a computer vision system that tracks movement.
  - Johnny555 11y ago
    If they have cameras that can track people via facial recognition, then why would they need to track people via body scans? If they really wanted to use body scans to track people, they'd arrange the checkpoints so the body scanner is the first place you go after they scan your boarding pass and/or ID. And when questioned about why they rearranged the checkpoints that way they'd just say "TSA security evolves to counter ever changing security threats, and we can't speak specifically about what prompted this reconfiguration." End of story since security theater is not to be questioned.
    - lwhalen 11y ago
      Facial recognition is fragile - a simple prosthetic or three can throw it off. Body recognition (and gait recognition) is less so, mainly because there's relatively MORE of it that would need to be disguised.
- wpietri 11y ago
  I don't think this is a very hard combinatorial problem. At least last time I flew, they scan my boarding pass when I'm pretty close to the scanners. They'd just have to pick me out of, say, 50-100 other scans. And once they establish decent time data on BP scan to body scan correlation, they'd be able to narrow the field further. I agree with you, though, that your last point makes this moot. They're too bumbling for me to worry.
crusso 11y ago
This is nonsensical. From the time that a person looks at your identification to the time that you go through the scanners, there is no tracking of individuals to associate the body type and DNA information with the ID provided. Depending upon the airport, people can go from the ID checks to up to a dozen different lines with no ordering of people as they go through the scanners. Then on the swabbing side, there's no checking of ID once again. If their intent was as nefarious as you claimed, the TSA would have changed the way you move through security in order to properly correlate the collected biometric information with ID.
- Dan_Nguyen 11y ago
  Adding onto this, a skin swab for a DNA sample is pretty useless. You have contamination from everything from skin flora to skin cells from other people you've had physical contact with. Given the very public nature of airports, contamination by others is not far fetched.
  - jimrandomh 11y ago
    To clarify, I didn't mean to imply that all those swabs get sequenced. That's too expensive to make sense. Rather, I'd expect them to be sequenced on demand if called for by a specific investigation.
    - Dan_Nguyen 11y ago
      Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood that one. My bad. That said, I'm not too sure how that would work. They only check your boarding pass at the initial security check before the scanners, and the order at which people have their IDs checked is not preserved once you get to the scanners, so you can't track identification that way. On top of that, as someone who's been swabbed multiple times (I'm assuming something to do with my camera equipment), I've never been asked for identification when swabbed. So you might get some DNA to sequence, but you won't really know who it actually is.
- dgant 11y ago
  It's still feasible without the direct tracking. If you see the same body/DNA at three different times, odds are only one person was flying at all three times, and then you have a match.
refurb 11y ago
Swabbing someone's hands is a pretty poor way to get a DNA sample. Plus, they'd need to prep the sample in short order in order to correctly analyze it.
Johnny555 11y ago
Well then the joke is on them, as I can assure you that a scan they made of me 5 years ago no longer matches my body shape so they are going to have a hard time tracking me. After this holiday's eating season is over, my body shape will diverge even more!
tallerholler 11y ago
please remove the tinfoil hat...
- themartorana 11y ago
  I don't get this. After Snowden and every revelation to come from that, how you can be so incredibly flip about other conspiracy theories is disappointing. I don't like it one bit, but every wacko that told you the government was listening on every phone call and reading every email turns out to be very right, and after Clapper, et al lied about it to Congress with no repercussions, well, maybe don't be so quick to dismiss further theories about the government spying on you.

imroot 11y ago

They do collect fingerprints from travelers -- TSA PreCheck -- but it's 100% opt-in.

ninjin 11y ago
Unless you are a not a US citizen of course, then you will have your fingerprints taken regardless.

xs 11y ago

But it specifically says in DHS document: TSA does not store any personally identifiable information from AIT screening.

delinka 11y ago
How have they defined "personally identifiable information?"
Zikes 11y ago
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/feds-admit-stored-body-scanner-images-tsa-claim-images-saved-article-1.200279 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/feds-admit-stored-b...
cgearhart 11y ago
This isn't as strong a statement as it seems. It doesn't say that the machines themselves don't store PII, or that "AIT screening does not result in any permanent record of PII". There have been cases of body scans leaking (if I recall, the vendor was recording the scans within machines used by the US Marshals).
jimrandomh 11y ago
This could just mean that all PII is handed off to another agency before it is stored. The NSA pulled similar shenanigans with public statements about their bulk data collection.

dopamean 11y ago

> they're building a database of those biometrics Where did you get this information from?

milge 11y ago
Reading between the lines? A massive data center in Utah?

seiji 11y ago

Security checkpoints don't combine identifying information with the order you go through security. If you had to scan your boarding pass before entering the scanner, that would be different, but... you don't. So, unless they are using face recognition to scan you when you get your boarding pass checked then re-compare it at the rapiscan, there's no PII gathering happening. (Now, they could always make a policy change and say "now you must tag your boarding pass on the scanner before entering" but we're not there yet.)

leesalminen 11y ago
My boarding pass has been scanned by a machine with a cat5 coming out the back at DIA, LGA, JFK, ORD, MDW, PHL and DFW this year. This happens at the podium when presenting ID and boarding pass. Although not directly at the time of scanning video surveillance shouldn't make it too hard to match the records up.
- seiji 11y ago
  Yes, but after that, you enter a queue of maybe a dozen people in no specific order to actually go through the scanner. They could pool results saying "these 10 scans are potentially from these 40 people" and cross reference against every airport visit, but are they that competent?
  - dozzie 11y ago
    You don't want to rely on them being incompetent, because you may end up with your hand deep down the toilet when they become smart enough. Now you only rely on incompetence alone, and that is quite easy to change.

sjg007 11y ago

I'd rather submit to a retinal scan then be xrayed.

wraithm112 11y ago

The problem with this theory, as I see it, is identity. When you go through the body scan, they don't ask for your identification. Yes, they ask for ID before going to the security line, but there's a very difficult combinatorial problem with lining up IDs with bodyscans. Also, I'm inclined to believe that the TSA is incompetent all the way up.

jimrandomh 11y ago
This objection seems... naive? Taking an engineering mindset, matching up people and scans doesn't seem like a very hard problem. The checkpoint areas are blanketed in cameras, so face recognition is one possibility. Or, an easier solution would be a computer vision system that tracks movement.
- Johnny555 11y ago
  If they have cameras that can track people via facial recognition, then why would they need to track people via body scans? If they really wanted to use body scans to track people, they'd arrange the checkpoints so the body scanner is the first place you go after they scan your boarding pass and/or ID. And when questioned about why they rearranged the checkpoints that way they'd just say "TSA security evolves to counter ever changing security threats, and we can't speak specifically about what prompted this reconfiguration." End of story since security theater is not to be questioned.
  - lwhalen 11y ago
    Facial recognition is fragile - a simple prosthetic or three can throw it off. Body recognition (and gait recognition) is less so, mainly because there's relatively MORE of it that would need to be disguised.
wpietri 11y ago
I don't think this is a very hard combinatorial problem. At least last time I flew, they scan my boarding pass when I'm pretty close to the scanners. They'd just have to pick me out of, say, 50-100 other scans. And once they establish decent time data on BP scan to body scan correlation, they'd be able to narrow the field further. I agree with you, though, that your last point makes this moot. They're too bumbling for me to worry.

crusso 11y ago

This is nonsensical. From the time that a person looks at your identification to the time that you go through the scanners, there is no tracking of individuals to associate the body type and DNA information with the ID provided. Depending upon the airport, people can go from the ID checks to up to a dozen different lines with no ordering of people as they go through the scanners. Then on the swabbing side, there's no checking of ID once again. If their intent was as nefarious as you claimed, the TSA would have changed the way you move through security in order to properly correlate the collected biometric information with ID.

Dan_Nguyen 11y ago
Adding onto this, a skin swab for a DNA sample is pretty useless. You have contamination from everything from skin flora to skin cells from other people you've had physical contact with. Given the very public nature of airports, contamination by others is not far fetched.
- jimrandomh 11y ago
  To clarify, I didn't mean to imply that all those swabs get sequenced. That's too expensive to make sense. Rather, I'd expect them to be sequenced on demand if called for by a specific investigation.
  - Dan_Nguyen 11y ago
    Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood that one. My bad. That said, I'm not too sure how that would work. They only check your boarding pass at the initial security check before the scanners, and the order at which people have their IDs checked is not preserved once you get to the scanners, so you can't track identification that way. On top of that, as someone who's been swabbed multiple times (I'm assuming something to do with my camera equipment), I've never been asked for identification when swabbed. So you might get some DNA to sequence, but you won't really know who it actually is.
dgant 11y ago
It's still feasible without the direct tracking. If you see the same body/DNA at three different times, odds are only one person was flying at all three times, and then you have a match.

refurb 11y ago

Swabbing someone's hands is a pretty poor way to get a DNA sample. Plus, they'd need to prep the sample in short order in order to correctly analyze it.

Johnny555 11y ago

Well then the joke is on them, as I can assure you that a scan they made of me 5 years ago no longer matches my body shape so they are going to have a hard time tracking me. After this holiday's eating season is over, my body shape will diverge even more!

tallerholler 11y ago

please remove the tinfoil hat...

themartorana 11y ago
I don't get this. After Snowden and every revelation to come from that, how you can be so incredibly flip about other conspiracy theories is disappointing. I don't like it one bit, but every wacko that told you the government was listening on every phone call and reading every email turns out to be very right, and after Clapper, et al lied about it to Congress with no repercussions, well, maybe don't be so quick to dismiss further theories about the government spying on you.