5 ms·

I highly recommend devs (especially JS devs) try out a Clojure/script project. The tooling has improved immensely, and Cursive is one hell of an IDE. JS devs wi

by chowes 11y ago

I highly recommend devs (especially JS devs) try out a Clojure/script project. The tooling has improved immensely, and Cursive is one hell of an IDE. JS devs will really appreciate how clearly you can express these seemingly new frontend paradigms (immutability, one way data flow, single source of state) in Clojure. Not to mention that REPL-driven development and hot-reloading are so pleasant to work in, leading to development environments like this: https://github.com/danielsz/holygrail https://github.com/danielsz/holygrail I'm curious if any Clojure veterans would weigh in on the state of Boot.. is it gaining traction, or is the consensus to stick with Leiningen?

erichmond 11y ago
I'm not a boot guru, so take my $0.02 with a grain of salt. I've been using boot for smaller and experimental projects because by default it feels so much leaner then leiningen does, however, because the support tooling around leiningen is still so further advanced, for project we're putting into production here, those are still all lein based. The other thing I'd say is, I've found what tool lein vs boot gets minimized over time as the project evolves. In general, I do think it's gaining traction and its a great project!
billrobertson42 11y ago
I've done Clojure, but haven't had much contact in the last several months, and I haven't been keeping too close tabs on the community. Regarding Boot, I just heard of it the other day for the first time. This all seems really exciting for Clojurescript. To me, it seems like it is a good option to have code that runs on multiple architectures. The ecosystem was lacking in some basics though, especially interacting w/3d party JS libraries, and I think CLJSJS (or something like it) will probably be one of the most important things for Clojurescript. Seems like there's a decent quickstart on the Clojurescript github wiki (https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start), is there a good next-steps resource that's current?
pgz 11y ago
That holygrail project looks cool thanks. As a Clojure newbie, I'm not too fond of Lein to be honest.
iheartmemcache 11y ago
I have nothing to say on Lein vs Boot, but I'm a long-term emacers with > 10 years and I can't endorse Cursive strongly enough. I've got easily at least 1k hours in my .emacs.d. Suffice it to say, it takes a lot to take away from Emacs/SLIME. Never bought into the Textmate hype during the Ruby days, or the SublimeText hype subsequently because Emacs already had all that functionality if not out of the box, there certainly was someone with an .el I could borrow. It takes a lot for me to leave Emacs, especially for a LISP. Here's my 2 cents - Cursive is worth it. (Hey Ideogram folks, if you want an endorsement, feel free to use that paragraph in exchange for a lifetime license ;)). For one-off-scripts, for back-end solutions, and what tipped me over the edge, it's CLJS script integration goes beyond acceptable -- it's actually fun to work in-- Cursive is my go-to. Om and Figwheel (optionally with Prismatic Schema if you like type guarantees) makes web development's feedback loop a lot tighter. Rich Hickey assembled a team of just insanely talented and charismatic(1) developers who not only are a) remarkably intelligent but b) know when to steal ideas and integrate them [none of that too-proud-NIH-syndrome there], and c) know how to interact in a way to that is community-feedback-positive(2) so people contribute. Watch this talk by David Nolen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByNs9TG30E8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByNs9TG30E8 (CLJS lead). [Sidebar - He even mentions how that whole immutable, one way data flow, datomic-ish single state idea existed in other languages, but read (2) on that]. Anyways, Cursive + Lein + ClojureScript + Om is the holy grail for me right now. On the other hand, that nREPL/cider/boot setup is what I'd be using as a long-time emacs'er were I to give up Cursive. (1) Having someone like Hickey or Nolen to shepherd ideas is actually really important in garnering traction. Developers go to conferences and when everyones talking about that 4PM Thursday talk that someone gave, it really resonates within the community for quite a while. I like Perl 6's ideas but if you've ever seen Larry Wall talk, well, yeah. (2) Some communities cough Haskell have great ideas, Lenses, FRP, applying (pun not intended) monoids -> functors -> applicative functors -> monads was genius. But for some reason the barrier to entry is so high (even for me with a fairly advanced math background) that concepts remain isolated within the community. LINQ is a monad (though few know it) and it took Brian Beckman (or Anders, or Bart de Smet, or whomever) to take it into C# to make the concept widely used by the Joe-the-programmer (again, pun not intended).
- eric-hu 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
yogthos 11y ago
Trying out Clojure/Script is really too. I recommend starting with Reagent https://reagent-project.github.io/ https://reagent-project.github.io/ as it has a minimal API and requires learning only a handful of concepts. Here's all you need to get started: Install OpenJDK: http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ Install Leiningen: http://leiningen.org/ http://leiningen.org/ Create a new project and run it: lein new reagent myapp cd myapp lein figwheel This will start the live ClojureScript compiler and your app will be available at localhost:3449 You can now navigate to the src/cljs/myapp/core.cljs file and start editing it. Any changes you make will be reflected live in the browser without having to reload the page. I recommend trying the code from the Reagent docs page linked above in the project.
- sandGorgon 11y ago
  Have you tried out React + ES6 ? whats your opinion on clojurescript versus that. Especially when you bring in concepts like generators [1] (as a replacement for clojurescript's async), destructuring,etc. [1] https://babeljs.io/docs/learn-es2015/ https://babeljs.io/docs/learn-es2015/
  - Skinney 11y ago
    I'm working on a React+ES6 project professionally, and use Clojurescript+Reagent for all my hobby projects. I would gladly use cljs+reagent for everything if I could. First off, cljs allows you to type less. Second, functionality provided by Immutable.JS is built into the language. Third, I can use paredit. I love paredit. Fourth, google closure has amazing code minification, dead code removal and a good standard library. Fifth, I've found figwheel to be better to react-hot-loader, the latter cannot always reload my application. Sixth, devcards. Seventh, incremental compile speed is faster. Eight, macros can greatly simplify code you're writing and allow new syntax to be exposed by libraries (core.async).
    - sandGorgon 11y ago
      thank you for writing such a detailed reply. But it seems that 4 out of your 8 points are covered by external libraries that are pretty good - Immutable is great... lodash is great... and google closure compiler is usable (https://github.com/mihaip/react-closure-compiler https://github.com/mihaip/react-closure-compiler). I use systemjs/jspm as well as its hot reloader and it works great (unless a particular component is legacy JS.. which will be a problem anywhere). Not really refuting your point, but ES6/ES7 (and from what I'm hearing.. Typescript) with all these libraries have sort of taken over the mindshare that clojurescript used to have. IMHO the only reason for me would be the package manager. I mean Systemjs/jspm is okay.. but the whole AMD/global/cjs/webpack/requirejs/browserify crap is way too much. Nothing works anywhere in the javascript world .
tlrobinson 11y ago
How does ClojureScript/Reagent/Om/etc interoperable with "legacy" (heh) React + Webpack projects? I'd be interested in using our existing "dumb" React/JSX components with one of these new "Graph-Query-View" systems (Clojure or plain-old-JS)
- yogthos 11y ago
  Reagent allows using any React classes directly, an example can be seen in the cookbook https://github.com/reagent-project/reagent-cookbook/blob/master/recipes/ReactCSSTransitionGroup/src/cljs/animation/core.cljs https://github.com/reagent-project/reagent-cookbook/blob/mas...
freshhawk 11y ago
I've been using boot for about 6 months now and it's wonderful ... for doing build tasks (take my source and create some artifacts). Especially with the improvements just released in boot 2.5. You will want to understand how pods and filesets work if you are doing anything interesting, as some interactions with them can be confusing if you don't have the right mental model. The wiki is quite good, but the source is a bit messy. For code reloading type tasks things are bit less nice, mostly because of the immutable nature of pods and filesets that make build tasks so trouble free. That means incremental cljs compilation, cljs repls and auto-test type tasks (for clj and cljs). We have transitioned to just using functions run from the repl to manage our clojurescript tasks and it has been a big improvement.

by chowes 11y ago

erichmond 11y ago

I'm not a boot guru, so take my $0.02 with a grain of salt. I've been using boot for smaller and experimental projects because by default it feels so much leaner then leiningen does, however, because the support tooling around leiningen is still so further advanced, for project we're putting into production here, those are still all lein based. The other thing I'd say is, I've found what tool lein vs boot gets minimized over time as the project evolves. In general, I do think it's gaining traction and its a great project!

billrobertson42 11y ago

I've done Clojure, but haven't had much contact in the last several months, and I haven't been keeping too close tabs on the community. Regarding Boot, I just heard of it the other day for the first time. This all seems really exciting for Clojurescript. To me, it seems like it is a good option to have code that runs on multiple architectures. The ecosystem was lacking in some basics though, especially interacting w/3d party JS libraries, and I think CLJSJS (or something like it) will probably be one of the most important things for Clojurescript. Seems like there's a decent quickstart on the Clojurescript github wiki (https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start), is there a good next-steps resource that's current?

pgz 11y ago

That holygrail project looks cool thanks. As a Clojure newbie, I'm not too fond of Lein to be honest.

iheartmemcache 11y ago

I have nothing to say on Lein vs Boot, but I'm a long-term emacers with > 10 years and I can't endorse Cursive strongly enough. I've got easily at least 1k hours in my .emacs.d. Suffice it to say, it takes a lot to take away from Emacs/SLIME. Never bought into the Textmate hype during the Ruby days, or the SublimeText hype subsequently because Emacs already had all that functionality if not out of the box, there certainly was someone with an .el I could borrow. It takes a lot for me to leave Emacs, especially for a LISP. Here's my 2 cents - Cursive is worth it. (Hey Ideogram folks, if you want an endorsement, feel free to use that paragraph in exchange for a lifetime license ;)). For one-off-scripts, for back-end solutions, and what tipped me over the edge, it's CLJS script integration goes beyond acceptable -- it's actually fun to work in-- Cursive is my go-to. Om and Figwheel (optionally with Prismatic Schema if you like type guarantees) makes web development's feedback loop a lot tighter. Rich Hickey assembled a team of just insanely talented and charismatic(1) developers who not only are a) remarkably intelligent but b) know when to steal ideas and integrate them [none of that too-proud-NIH-syndrome there], and c) know how to interact in a way to that is community-feedback-positive(2) so people contribute. Watch this talk by David Nolen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByNs9TG30E8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByNs9TG30E8 (CLJS lead). [Sidebar - He even mentions how that whole immutable, one way data flow, datomic-ish single state idea existed in other languages, but read (2) on that]. Anyways, Cursive + Lein + ClojureScript + Om is the holy grail for me right now. On the other hand, that nREPL/cider/boot setup is what I'd be using as a long-time emacs'er were I to give up Cursive. (1) Having someone like Hickey or Nolen to shepherd ideas is actually really important in garnering traction. Developers go to conferences and when everyones talking about that 4PM Thursday talk that someone gave, it really resonates within the community for quite a while. I like Perl 6's ideas but if you've ever seen Larry Wall talk, well, yeah. (2) Some communities cough Haskell have great ideas, Lenses, FRP, applying (pun not intended) monoids -> functors -> applicative functors -> monads was genius. But for some reason the barrier to entry is so high (even for me with a fairly advanced math background) that concepts remain isolated within the community. LINQ is a monad (though few know it) and it took Brian Beckman (or Anders, or Bart de Smet, or whomever) to take it into C# to make the concept widely used by the Joe-the-programmer (again, pun not intended).

eric-hu 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

yogthos 11y ago

Trying out Clojure/Script is really too. I recommend starting with Reagent https://reagent-project.github.io/ https://reagent-project.github.io/ as it has a minimal API and requires learning only a handful of concepts. Here's all you need to get started: Install OpenJDK: http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ Install Leiningen: http://leiningen.org/ http://leiningen.org/ Create a new project and run it: lein new reagent myapp cd myapp lein figwheel This will start the live ClojureScript compiler and your app will be available at localhost:3449 You can now navigate to the src/cljs/myapp/core.cljs file and start editing it. Any changes you make will be reflected live in the browser without having to reload the page. I recommend trying the code from the Reagent docs page linked above in the project.

sandGorgon 11y ago
Have you tried out React + ES6 ? whats your opinion on clojurescript versus that. Especially when you bring in concepts like generators [1] (as a replacement for clojurescript's async), destructuring,etc. [1] https://babeljs.io/docs/learn-es2015/ https://babeljs.io/docs/learn-es2015/
- Skinney 11y ago
  I'm working on a React+ES6 project professionally, and use Clojurescript+Reagent for all my hobby projects. I would gladly use cljs+reagent for everything if I could. First off, cljs allows you to type less. Second, functionality provided by Immutable.JS is built into the language. Third, I can use paredit. I love paredit. Fourth, google closure has amazing code minification, dead code removal and a good standard library. Fifth, I've found figwheel to be better to react-hot-loader, the latter cannot always reload my application. Sixth, devcards. Seventh, incremental compile speed is faster. Eight, macros can greatly simplify code you're writing and allow new syntax to be exposed by libraries (core.async).
  - sandGorgon 11y ago
    thank you for writing such a detailed reply. But it seems that 4 out of your 8 points are covered by external libraries that are pretty good - Immutable is great... lodash is great... and google closure compiler is usable (https://github.com/mihaip/react-closure-compiler https://github.com/mihaip/react-closure-compiler). I use systemjs/jspm as well as its hot reloader and it works great (unless a particular component is legacy JS.. which will be a problem anywhere). Not really refuting your point, but ES6/ES7 (and from what I'm hearing.. Typescript) with all these libraries have sort of taken over the mindshare that clojurescript used to have. IMHO the only reason for me would be the package manager. I mean Systemjs/jspm is okay.. but the whole AMD/global/cjs/webpack/requirejs/browserify crap is way too much. Nothing works anywhere in the javascript world .

tlrobinson 11y ago

How does ClojureScript/Reagent/Om/etc interoperable with "legacy" (heh) React + Webpack projects? I'd be interested in using our existing "dumb" React/JSX components with one of these new "Graph-Query-View" systems (Clojure or plain-old-JS)

yogthos 11y ago
Reagent allows using any React classes directly, an example can be seen in the cookbook https://github.com/reagent-project/reagent-cookbook/blob/master/recipes/ReactCSSTransitionGroup/src/cljs/animation/core.cljs https://github.com/reagent-project/reagent-cookbook/blob/mas...

freshhawk 11y ago

I've been using boot for about 6 months now and it's wonderful ... for doing build tasks (take my source and create some artifacts). Especially with the improvements just released in boot 2.5. You will want to understand how pods and filesets work if you are doing anything interesting, as some interactions with them can be confusing if you don't have the right mental model. The wiki is quite good, but the source is a bit messy. For code reloading type tasks things are bit less nice, mostly because of the immutable nature of pods and filesets that make build tasks so trouble free. That means incremental cljs compilation, cljs repls and auto-test type tasks (for clj and cljs). We have transitioned to just using functions run from the repl to manage our clojurescript tasks and it has been a big improvement.