4 ms·

Ok how does this work in Europe. In Amsterdam, high salaeries are around 72000 per year. Of which 50% goes to the tax. So you only have around 3k per month...

by TeeWEE 11y ago

pc86 11y ago
Part of the benefit of living in the US is the relatively low tax climate (California notwithstanding, its state income taxes are 4x what I pay) which generally leads to increased socioeconomic mobility (a disputed statement, I know). I imagine the advice for a European with a salary cap of approximately 70-80k is the same for an American with a salary cap of 85-90k: wealth is most likely only going to come from entrepreneurship or blind luck.
- athenot 11y ago
  Salaries in the US are much closer to those of in the EU once you factor in the cost of financing your own safety net. That's the counterpart of lower taxes. Now if you're in the US and pretend to have an EU salary by stashing away a big chunk of it, then yes that is most desirable.
  - crucifiction 11y ago
    Not in tech. Per other HN recent articles its relatively straightforward to make in the $150-250k range as a software engineer at BigTech. Even if you decide to stash $30k/year after tax for your own 'safety net' (equivalent to whatever net you receive in an EU country), you are still coming out way ahead of a EU software engineer that is probably making $70-90k USD equivalent before taxes take half.
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      Does anyone make that much money outside of expensive cities like San Francisco and New York though? I know that I am underpaid but I don't think I am that underpaid.
      - crucifiction 11y ago
        That is where the bulk of tech jobs are, around cities where you can make that much. For example, you can make that in Seattle or basically anywhere in the bay area (no, you don't need to live in SF unless you want to). The cost of living is higher, but the cost of living in large EU cities where tech jobs are going to be is similarly higher. I think people also make bad comparisons when doing cost of living exercises. While it is true that potentially much more $$ will be going to rent/mortgage in a high cost of living area, many other things are going to be the same as anywhere else. A $100k Tesla is $100k in SF just like its $100k in North Dakota. After tax + basic needs costs and someone in a large tech city is going to have significantly more disposable income still than someone making much lower salary with much lower cost of living.
  - refurb 11y ago
    I'm curious about what you mean by "financing your own safety net"? If you take an average middle class person in the US, your company will provide you with health insurance, so that's covered. If you come down with a horrible illness and can't work, your employer provides LT disability insurance. If you run out of that, you have Social Security disability insurance. And even if that runs out, you have Medicaid disability insurance. I won't argue that the EU provides a more comprehensive safety net (probably easier access as well), but US isn't that far behind.
    - Futurebot 11y ago
      If you live in one of the major metros where the jobs are, your rent may be very high (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/11/why-its-so-hard-for-millennials-to-figure-out-where-to-live/382929/?utm_source=SFFB&single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/11/why-its-...), which means that your runway that sounds like a lot isn't, /especially/ if you have to deal with an extended job search. This is obviously less of an issue for many decent or better developers in the current market, but this can't necessarily be said of adjacent positions. Unemployment benefits in the US are both incredibly stingy and time-limited. Another thing is that there is a strata of people who fall into the donut hole: they make too much to get ACA subsidies, and too little to get a reasonable plan (http://kff.org/health-reform/issue-brief/the-coverage-gap-uninsured-poor-adults-in-states-that-do-not-expand-medicaid-an-update/. http://kff.org/health-reform/issue-brief/the-coverage-gap-un...) If you get stuck with a major condition in that situation, you're going to be in a lot of trouble, not to mention that even the insured may not have everything covered. Medical bankruptcies are the most common in the US still: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148 "Even outside of bankruptcy, about 56 million adults—more than 20 percent of the population between the ages of 19 and 64—will still struggle with health-care-related bills this year, according to NerdWallet Health. And if you think only Americans without health insurance face financial troubles, think again. NerdWallet estimates nearly 10 million adults with year-round health-insurance coverage will still accumulate medical bills that they can't pay off this year." So yes, in the US, you absolutely need your own safety net.
      - 11y ago
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  Socioeconomic mobility in the United States is much lower than in other comparable counties.
  - pc86 11y ago
    Assuming that is the case, could this have anything to do with the US's top income decile being the highest in the OECD 30[0] while the income for the lowest decile in closer to the bottom? Meaning that it's as much a function of just the distance required to move from one quintile to another as it is a measure of any structural mobility or inequality. [0] 2010, the most recent I could find - http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/income_inequality_0 http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/income_i...
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      There are many, many factors, but that's one. Income inequality mapped with social mobility is called "The Great Gatsby Curve." The usual suspects have the highest social mobility - Denmark, Norway, and Finland plus Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the... Social safety nets actually lead to an increase in social mobility.
      - jdjdndij 11y ago
        Uhh, no. That's because they're homogenous. Homogenous cultures have higher social mobility. Cities like San Francisco and New York for example have lower social mobility than places like Utah or Nebraska. http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/cassidy_04.jpg http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/cassidy_...
        pc86 11y ago
        Why would you make a throw-away account for this?
        cgh 11y ago
lumberjack 11y ago
You will have a generous overall pension (public plus private/collective) and about 850K in additional savings if you save an additional 900/month. I'm being somewhat conservative in my estimates. The pension alone should be enough to live and even travel on.
- kirk21 11y ago
  Not so sure about getting that pension. Just take a look at the balance sheet of the governments in the EU.
Avalaxy 11y ago
I think 72K in the Netherlands for a software dev is rare, but maybe it's possible. But the 50% tax is not true, you don't pay 52% over the whole amount, it works with tiers. Over the first 20K you'll pay 36.5%, over the next 38K you'll pay 42% and over the remaining 14K you'll pay 52%. This equals a net income of 45K, which is 3.75K per month.
- WWLink 11y ago
  That tax structure sounds exactly like the taxes I paid on my salary being a single person in the US.

Ok how does this work in Europe. In Amsterdam, high salaeries are around 72000 per year. Of which 50% goes to the tax. So you only have around 3k per month...

by TeeWEE 11y ago

Ok how does this work in Europe. In Amsterdam, high salaeries are around 72000 per year. Of which 50% goes to the tax. So you only have around 3k per month...

pc86 11y ago

Part of the benefit of living in the US is the relatively low tax climate (California notwithstanding, its state income taxes are 4x what I pay) which generally leads to increased socioeconomic mobility (a disputed statement, I know). I imagine the advice for a European with a salary cap of approximately 70-80k is the same for an American with a salary cap of 85-90k: wealth is most likely only going to come from entrepreneurship or blind luck.

athenot 11y ago
Salaries in the US are much closer to those of in the EU once you factor in the cost of financing your own safety net. That's the counterpart of lower taxes. Now if you're in the US and pretend to have an EU salary by stashing away a big chunk of it, then yes that is most desirable.
- crucifiction 11y ago
  Not in tech. Per other HN recent articles its relatively straightforward to make in the $150-250k range as a software engineer at BigTech. Even if you decide to stash $30k/year after tax for your own 'safety net' (equivalent to whatever net you receive in an EU country), you are still coming out way ahead of a EU software engineer that is probably making $70-90k USD equivalent before taxes take half.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    Does anyone make that much money outside of expensive cities like San Francisco and New York though? I know that I am underpaid but I don't think I am that underpaid.
    - crucifiction 11y ago
      That is where the bulk of tech jobs are, around cities where you can make that much. For example, you can make that in Seattle or basically anywhere in the bay area (no, you don't need to live in SF unless you want to). The cost of living is higher, but the cost of living in large EU cities where tech jobs are going to be is similarly higher. I think people also make bad comparisons when doing cost of living exercises. While it is true that potentially much more $$ will be going to rent/mortgage in a high cost of living area, many other things are going to be the same as anywhere else. A $100k Tesla is $100k in SF just like its $100k in North Dakota. After tax + basic needs costs and someone in a large tech city is going to have significantly more disposable income still than someone making much lower salary with much lower cost of living.
- refurb 11y ago
  I'm curious about what you mean by "financing your own safety net"? If you take an average middle class person in the US, your company will provide you with health insurance, so that's covered. If you come down with a horrible illness and can't work, your employer provides LT disability insurance. If you run out of that, you have Social Security disability insurance. And even if that runs out, you have Medicaid disability insurance. I won't argue that the EU provides a more comprehensive safety net (probably easier access as well), but US isn't that far behind.
  - Futurebot 11y ago
    If you live in one of the major metros where the jobs are, your rent may be very high (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/11/why-its-so-hard-for-millennials-to-figure-out-where-to-live/382929/?utm_source=SFFB&single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/11/why-its-...), which means that your runway that sounds like a lot isn't, /especially/ if you have to deal with an extended job search. This is obviously less of an issue for many decent or better developers in the current market, but this can't necessarily be said of adjacent positions. Unemployment benefits in the US are both incredibly stingy and time-limited. Another thing is that there is a strata of people who fall into the donut hole: they make too much to get ACA subsidies, and too little to get a reasonable plan (http://kff.org/health-reform/issue-brief/the-coverage-gap-uninsured-poor-adults-in-states-that-do-not-expand-medicaid-an-update/. http://kff.org/health-reform/issue-brief/the-coverage-gap-un...) If you get stuck with a major condition in that situation, you're going to be in a lot of trouble, not to mention that even the insured may not have everything covered. Medical bankruptcies are the most common in the US still: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148 "Even outside of bankruptcy, about 56 million adults—more than 20 percent of the population between the ages of 19 and 64—will still struggle with health-care-related bills this year, according to NerdWallet Health. And if you think only Americans without health insurance face financial troubles, think again. NerdWallet estimates nearly 10 million adults with year-round health-insurance coverage will still accumulate medical bills that they can't pay off this year." So yes, in the US, you absolutely need your own safety net.
    - 11y ago
nommm-nommm 11y ago
Socioeconomic mobility in the United States is much lower than in other comparable counties.
- pc86 11y ago
  Assuming that is the case, could this have anything to do with the US's top income decile being the highest in the OECD 30[0] while the income for the lowest decile in closer to the bottom? Meaning that it's as much a function of just the distance required to move from one quintile to another as it is a measure of any structural mobility or inequality. [0] 2010, the most recent I could find - http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/income_inequality_0 http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/income_i...
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    There are many, many factors, but that's one. Income inequality mapped with social mobility is called "The Great Gatsby Curve." The usual suspects have the highest social mobility - Denmark, Norway, and Finland plus Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the... Social safety nets actually lead to an increase in social mobility.
    - jdjdndij 11y ago
      Uhh, no. That's because they're homogenous. Homogenous cultures have higher social mobility. Cities like San Francisco and New York for example have lower social mobility than places like Utah or Nebraska. http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/cassidy_04.jpg http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/cassidy_...
      - pc86 11y ago
        Why would you make a throw-away account for this?
      - cgh 11y ago

lumberjack 11y ago

You will have a generous overall pension (public plus private/collective) and about 850K in additional savings if you save an additional 900/month. I'm being somewhat conservative in my estimates. The pension alone should be enough to live and even travel on.

kirk21 11y ago
Not so sure about getting that pension. Just take a look at the balance sheet of the governments in the EU.

Avalaxy 11y ago

I think 72K in the Netherlands for a software dev is rare, but maybe it's possible. But the 50% tax is not true, you don't pay 52% over the whole amount, it works with tiers. Over the first 20K you'll pay 36.5%, over the next 38K you'll pay 42% and over the remaining 14K you'll pay 52%. This equals a net income of 45K, which is 3.75K per month.

WWLink 11y ago
That tax structure sounds exactly like the taxes I paid on my salary being a single person in the US.