4 ms·

How likely is this situation in the rest of the world? Can one end up behind bars for teaching at an "unofficial" school?

humanrebar 11y ago
> How likely is this situation in the rest of the world? Can one end up behind bars for teaching at an "unofficial" school? Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but it sounds like Mr. Badavam's crimes were being Baha'i and teaching at a school for Baha'i students. From the article: "Iran’s Baha’i community created BIHE in the 1980s after our youth were banned from Iranian universities. I began volunteering there in 1989 after serving three years in prison for simply being an active Baha’i." If I'm reading this correctly, the title is a bit misleading.
- asuffield 11y ago
  You are reading this correctly. The "for teaching physics" title is clickbait, which does not appear to be reflected in the body of the article. Baha'i is a religion, and he was imprisoned for apostasy from Islam in a country where that is considered a crime. Relevant information is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith#Persecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith#Perse... It's pretty ugly. To answer the GP's question: if you are in Iran, you are likely to end up in prison for any form of openly displaying an unwillingness to follow Islamic rules. If you should find yourself in Iran, my best advice is to leave at the earliest opportunity.
  - rjzzleep 11y ago
    > To answer the GP's question: if you are in Iran, you are likely to end up in prison for any form of openly displaying an unwillingness to follow Islamic rules. If you should find yourself in Iran, my best advice is to leave at the earliest opportunity. I don't think that's correct. Apostasy though is banned by law(not just for muslims). Also whether it's true or not that there is a strong relationship between Baha'i and Israel the world center is in Haifa. You don't need to be a genius to know that doesn't play ball with the Mullah's. Any of the downvoters care to explain their downvote? Saying 1800 doesn't properly capture that it was founded in 1844 and that by 1853 he the main guy left, because after the previous guy was executed after he declared himself the messiah and wrote a new sharia law, and in '50 his followers tried to assassinate the shah.
    - djKianoosh 11y ago
      The reason the Baha'i world center is in Haifa Israel is because the Persian authorities in the 1800's banished its founder outside its borders to the Ottomonan Empire next door. there was no Israel at the time. The mullahs just find it convenient to use as an excuse to discriminate and treat any non muslims as 2nd class citizens.
      - iofj 11y ago
        The Baha'i world center is beautiful by the way. Well worth a visit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_World_Centre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_World_Centr... Persian authorities -> let's just say muslims, and stop trying to claim that these people are treated differently in any muslim country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#/media/File:Apostasy_laws_in_2013.SVG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#/media/File:Apostasy_... (note that Indonesia is not correct, people are executed there for leaving islam all the time : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq6WMatTEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq6WMatTEQ ) If anything, Iran is very flexible in it's interpretation of islam (events like in Indonesia are pretty much unthinkable in Iran). Even in this case. You see, the prescribed punishment for what this guy did, according to islam, is not imprisonment at all. It is execution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam The constant weaseling out of stating the fact, the sort of treatment muslims give people of non-islamic faiths, and atheists (read the blog "the big pharaoh" a bit) is very a very controversial fact : just read the wikipedia article, the constant sentences about "a minority thinks different". Reality is that polls place the number of muslims that want to execute people like this physics teacher is just over 70%, and more in countries like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and a dozen others. You will experience the same constant weaseling out if you talk to muslims in America. When you're in an islamic ghetto, in Europe (some have quite nice food), they (in one case the same muslim) will readily point it out though. Seems to have something to do with how many muslims there are. Of course this means that the basic article of the current politically correct order, that humans just want to live together in peace, is not true for around 70% of muslims. Whether they'll take immediate action on that opinion is a different matter, true, but that obviously doesn't apply once muslims are ~60% of the local population.
  - DominikR 11y ago
    > if you are in Iran, you are likely to end up in prison for any form of openly displaying an unwillingness to follow Islamic rules. If you should find yourself in Iran, my best advice is to leave at the earliest opportunity. The problem is not only Iran, most countries with Muslim majorities have this problem. Yes, there are some exceptions though. Also where should this people leave to? Just because they'd like to leave they are not entitled to be let in. If you ask me: Stay in Iran or where ever you are right now and work on improving your own country and society.
    - Grishnakh 11y ago
      The only way to improve a country like that is through violent revolution, because you're never going to get conservative Muslims to change their views. Anything short of that is a waste of effort. If your group is a tiny minority, you have no chance of your violent revolution succeeding in Iran. Therefore, the only sane thing to do is figure out how to leave. Someone like that should be able to rightfully claim asylum somewhere, because obviously, being a religious minority in Iran can and does lead to serious oppression in the form of prison.
      - tamana 11y ago
        I don't see evidence that violent people's revolution (not the US kind of traditional polite batyle among aristocrats' armies) is more successful than a modernizing/liberalizing leader, like Russia at the end of the cold war (before Putin-types won back the elections). Removing a government is relatively easy. Installing a new one is hard.
        Grishnakh 11y ago
        You just reinforced my point. A "modernizing/liberalizing leader" doesn't work, as you just pointed out yourself with Russia. If the majority of the people aren't supportive of that, that leader will be replaced before long with a Putin-like leader. Obviously, someone in Russia in the late 80s would have been better off simply leaving the country for greener pastures, because the time they had with a more liberal leader was short and things quickly regressed. Fighting for a better government is only worthwhile when the majority of people in your country are going to back you. If most of them like the crappy, oppressive government (or want something even worse), you're just wasting your time and effort trying to improve things, and you'd be better off finding someplace better to live.
- obrero 11y ago
  The first major bloodletting of the Bahai in Iran was in 1955 - two years after the US and UK conspired to overthrow Iran's secular parliament and install the Shah, with the backing of the ayatollahs. In 1955, the Shah and his strong supporter, Ayatollah Falsafi, conspired in an anti-Bahai campaign which led to riots in Iran, Bahai deaths etc. It's not surprising to me at all to see Americans overthrow a secular democracy, install an ayatollah-back dictator who less than two years later starts a bloody campaign against the Bahai... ...and then to see those same Americans shaking their heads in moral outrage how the Iranian ayatollahs (who they empowered) are persecuting the Bahai in the modern day.
  - mikestew 11y ago
    "and then to see those same Americans" Same Americans? It was sixty years ago; those responsible are either dead or so old that "shaking their heads in moral outrage" is physically difficult.
    - JupiterMoon 11y ago
      But the policies have not changed...

humanrebar 11y ago

> How likely is this situation in the rest of the world? Can one end up behind bars for teaching at an "unofficial" school? Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but it sounds like Mr. Badavam's crimes were being Baha'i and teaching at a school for Baha'i students. From the article: "Iran’s Baha’i community created BIHE in the 1980s after our youth were banned from Iranian universities. I began volunteering there in 1989 after serving three years in prison for simply being an active Baha’i." If I'm reading this correctly, the title is a bit misleading.

asuffield 11y ago
You are reading this correctly. The "for teaching physics" title is clickbait, which does not appear to be reflected in the body of the article. Baha'i is a religion, and he was imprisoned for apostasy from Islam in a country where that is considered a crime. Relevant information is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith#Persecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith#Perse... It's pretty ugly. To answer the GP's question: if you are in Iran, you are likely to end up in prison for any form of openly displaying an unwillingness to follow Islamic rules. If you should find yourself in Iran, my best advice is to leave at the earliest opportunity.
- rjzzleep 11y ago
  > To answer the GP's question: if you are in Iran, you are likely to end up in prison for any form of openly displaying an unwillingness to follow Islamic rules. If you should find yourself in Iran, my best advice is to leave at the earliest opportunity. I don't think that's correct. Apostasy though is banned by law(not just for muslims). Also whether it's true or not that there is a strong relationship between Baha'i and Israel the world center is in Haifa. You don't need to be a genius to know that doesn't play ball with the Mullah's. Any of the downvoters care to explain their downvote? Saying 1800 doesn't properly capture that it was founded in 1844 and that by 1853 he the main guy left, because after the previous guy was executed after he declared himself the messiah and wrote a new sharia law, and in '50 his followers tried to assassinate the shah.
  - djKianoosh 11y ago
    The reason the Baha'i world center is in Haifa Israel is because the Persian authorities in the 1800's banished its founder outside its borders to the Ottomonan Empire next door. there was no Israel at the time. The mullahs just find it convenient to use as an excuse to discriminate and treat any non muslims as 2nd class citizens.
    - iofj 11y ago
      The Baha'i world center is beautiful by the way. Well worth a visit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_World_Centre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_World_Centr... Persian authorities -> let's just say muslims, and stop trying to claim that these people are treated differently in any muslim country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#/media/File:Apostasy_laws_in_2013.SVG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#/media/File:Apostasy_... (note that Indonesia is not correct, people are executed there for leaving islam all the time : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq6WMatTEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq6WMatTEQ ) If anything, Iran is very flexible in it's interpretation of islam (events like in Indonesia are pretty much unthinkable in Iran). Even in this case. You see, the prescribed punishment for what this guy did, according to islam, is not imprisonment at all. It is execution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam The constant weaseling out of stating the fact, the sort of treatment muslims give people of non-islamic faiths, and atheists (read the blog "the big pharaoh" a bit) is very a very controversial fact : just read the wikipedia article, the constant sentences about "a minority thinks different". Reality is that polls place the number of muslims that want to execute people like this physics teacher is just over 70%, and more in countries like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and a dozen others. You will experience the same constant weaseling out if you talk to muslims in America. When you're in an islamic ghetto, in Europe (some have quite nice food), they (in one case the same muslim) will readily point it out though. Seems to have something to do with how many muslims there are. Of course this means that the basic article of the current politically correct order, that humans just want to live together in peace, is not true for around 70% of muslims. Whether they'll take immediate action on that opinion is a different matter, true, but that obviously doesn't apply once muslims are ~60% of the local population.
- DominikR 11y ago
  > if you are in Iran, you are likely to end up in prison for any form of openly displaying an unwillingness to follow Islamic rules. If you should find yourself in Iran, my best advice is to leave at the earliest opportunity. The problem is not only Iran, most countries with Muslim majorities have this problem. Yes, there are some exceptions though. Also where should this people leave to? Just because they'd like to leave they are not entitled to be let in. If you ask me: Stay in Iran or where ever you are right now and work on improving your own country and society.
  - Grishnakh 11y ago
    The only way to improve a country like that is through violent revolution, because you're never going to get conservative Muslims to change their views. Anything short of that is a waste of effort. If your group is a tiny minority, you have no chance of your violent revolution succeeding in Iran. Therefore, the only sane thing to do is figure out how to leave. Someone like that should be able to rightfully claim asylum somewhere, because obviously, being a religious minority in Iran can and does lead to serious oppression in the form of prison.
    - tamana 11y ago
      I don't see evidence that violent people's revolution (not the US kind of traditional polite batyle among aristocrats' armies) is more successful than a modernizing/liberalizing leader, like Russia at the end of the cold war (before Putin-types won back the elections). Removing a government is relatively easy. Installing a new one is hard.
      - Grishnakh 11y ago
        You just reinforced my point. A "modernizing/liberalizing leader" doesn't work, as you just pointed out yourself with Russia. If the majority of the people aren't supportive of that, that leader will be replaced before long with a Putin-like leader. Obviously, someone in Russia in the late 80s would have been better off simply leaving the country for greener pastures, because the time they had with a more liberal leader was short and things quickly regressed. Fighting for a better government is only worthwhile when the majority of people in your country are going to back you. If most of them like the crappy, oppressive government (or want something even worse), you're just wasting your time and effort trying to improve things, and you'd be better off finding someplace better to live.
obrero 11y ago
The first major bloodletting of the Bahai in Iran was in 1955 - two years after the US and UK conspired to overthrow Iran's secular parliament and install the Shah, with the backing of the ayatollahs. In 1955, the Shah and his strong supporter, Ayatollah Falsafi, conspired in an anti-Bahai campaign which led to riots in Iran, Bahai deaths etc. It's not surprising to me at all to see Americans overthrow a secular democracy, install an ayatollah-back dictator who less than two years later starts a bloody campaign against the Bahai... ...and then to see those same Americans shaking their heads in moral outrage how the Iranian ayatollahs (who they empowered) are persecuting the Bahai in the modern day.
- mikestew 11y ago
  "and then to see those same Americans" Same Americans? It was sixty years ago; those responsible are either dead or so old that "shaking their heads in moral outrage" is physically difficult.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    But the policies have not changed...