5 ms·

Gambling does not mean that poker is not a game of skill.

dragonwriter 11y ago
As a key issue with DFS is state laws in which "gambling" is legally distinguished from "games of skill", yes, in context, it does.
- TheLogothete 11y ago
  I'm not from the US, so didn't know that, but it is stupid. Gambling and game of skill are not mutually exclusive. Gambling means that there is some variance, some risk involved. You gamble on the outcome. That doesn't mean you cannot develop a skillset which will make taking the risk profitable, over the long term. Any law that says otherwise is ill-written.
  - akerl_ 11y ago
    By that definition, every action you undertake is gambling. Driving to the grocery store is gambling. But since regulating driving your car to the shop under "gambling" laws doesn't make sense, "gambling" as a legal concept involves wagering money on games of chance, and "games of chance" is a distinct concept which is separated from "games of skill". This is the line that DFS is trying to walk, because the skill side of the line is the side that lets them operate in places where gambling is more strictly regulated.
    - TheLogothete 11y ago
      Like I said, any law that insists on making a mutual distinction between games of skill and gambling (risking money on a probability of an outcome) is ill-written. Poker is a game of skill just like backgammon. You can wager money and there is risk (chance) involved, but you can develop skills which will ensure that you are a winner over a less skilled opponent. Just like golf. There is always the chance that you will not make the necessary strikes and a less skilled opponent takes a game from you, but over the long run, you can sufficiently influence the outcome and achieve a positive win rate. This is what makes it a skill-based game. You influence it by your skills. You can place wagers and gamble on the outcome, but that doesn't suddenly make it any less not a game of skill. I'm not very familiar with fantasy sports, but to the best of my knowledge, the same holds true there too. A game of chance cannot be distinguished from games of skill. All games involve chance. This problem probably arises from the poor understanding of "chance" and probabilities by the people who wrote the law (presuming Hanlon's razor here). They wanted to ban games where the operator bleeds the players dry, like slots, lottery, etc., and called them "game of chance", but there is more to the story of "chance", like i outlined above.
      - akerl_ 11y ago
        I think you may misunderstand the purpose of the gambling laws here. Do you have a citation for their purpose as a consumer-protection measure? Given the government's heavy use of lotteries and other gambling as a cash source, the laws appear to be designed by lawmakers with a solid understanding of chance and probability and a desire to ensure that monetary gambling (with gambling defined as "an activity where the influence of chance outweighs the benefits of skill, for most participants") be restricted to the state, not commercial entities.
        TheLogothete 11y ago
        It might very well be the case. I'm not sure about their motives, I even said so. I don't see how that affects the poorly written definition and the case that poker and fantasy sports are games of skill.
        akerl_ 11y ago
        Probably worth checking out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq785nJ0FXQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq785nJ0FXQ The relevant point being that not everybody believes they're a "game of skill" in the "skill vs. chance" slider which is relevant to the law. While there's no question that like every game, user actions (skill) can impact the outcome, how much it can impact the outcome is what determines whether something is classified as a game of skill or chance. Perhaps it's more clear if we say "a game of primarily skill" or "primarily chance". If daily fantasy sports is primarily skill-based, they can do it. If it's primarily chance-based, it's illegal in the US. Which is why they're pushing for it to be referred to as "skill-based".
        dragonwriter 11y ago
        Some laws use a predominance test; New York law, which seems to be the main focus, does not -- it uses material element of chance standard, which can apply even when a game is primarily skill-based.
      - 11y ago
    - mrchicity 11y ago
      Beating the point spread wagering on NFL games is also a game of skill then. There are some sports betters who are better at analyzing data than the bookies are who consistently make money. Very few games that we'd call gambling (e.g. blackjack) are 100% chance though. Maybe dice games? Lotteries? Even in games where the house always has edge, you can lose less by playing optimally.
      - TheLogothete 11y ago
        In sports betting, the odds are dynamically adjusted by the operator, who is also part of the game. Not quite the same as poker. Losing less does not mean you can win, which is the case in poker. To the best of my knowledge, it is the case in fantasy sports too.
      - avn2109 11y ago
        >> "...100% chance..." Roulette and slot machines.
  - Ntrails 11y ago
    In general I'd say gambling is seen as "Playing games of chance [with money] for the entertainment/enjoyment value". Honestly though I reckon it's a fine line between a person day trading their pension, a spread better and a poker player. At the very least I'd love to see how it's distinguished legally.

As a key issue with DFS is state laws in which "gambling" is legally distinguished from "games of skill", yes, in context, it does.

TheLogothete 11y ago
I'm not from the US, so didn't know that, but it is stupid. Gambling and game of skill are not mutually exclusive. Gambling means that there is some variance, some risk involved. You gamble on the outcome. That doesn't mean you cannot develop a skillset which will make taking the risk profitable, over the long term. Any law that says otherwise is ill-written.
- akerl_ 11y ago
  By that definition, every action you undertake is gambling. Driving to the grocery store is gambling. But since regulating driving your car to the shop under "gambling" laws doesn't make sense, "gambling" as a legal concept involves wagering money on games of chance, and "games of chance" is a distinct concept which is separated from "games of skill". This is the line that DFS is trying to walk, because the skill side of the line is the side that lets them operate in places where gambling is more strictly regulated.
  - TheLogothete 11y ago
    Like I said, any law that insists on making a mutual distinction between games of skill and gambling (risking money on a probability of an outcome) is ill-written. Poker is a game of skill just like backgammon. You can wager money and there is risk (chance) involved, but you can develop skills which will ensure that you are a winner over a less skilled opponent. Just like golf. There is always the chance that you will not make the necessary strikes and a less skilled opponent takes a game from you, but over the long run, you can sufficiently influence the outcome and achieve a positive win rate. This is what makes it a skill-based game. You influence it by your skills. You can place wagers and gamble on the outcome, but that doesn't suddenly make it any less not a game of skill. I'm not very familiar with fantasy sports, but to the best of my knowledge, the same holds true there too. A game of chance cannot be distinguished from games of skill. All games involve chance. This problem probably arises from the poor understanding of "chance" and probabilities by the people who wrote the law (presuming Hanlon's razor here). They wanted to ban games where the operator bleeds the players dry, like slots, lottery, etc., and called them "game of chance", but there is more to the story of "chance", like i outlined above.
    - akerl_ 11y ago
      I think you may misunderstand the purpose of the gambling laws here. Do you have a citation for their purpose as a consumer-protection measure? Given the government's heavy use of lotteries and other gambling as a cash source, the laws appear to be designed by lawmakers with a solid understanding of chance and probability and a desire to ensure that monetary gambling (with gambling defined as "an activity where the influence of chance outweighs the benefits of skill, for most participants") be restricted to the state, not commercial entities.
      - TheLogothete 11y ago
        It might very well be the case. I'm not sure about their motives, I even said so. I don't see how that affects the poorly written definition and the case that poker and fantasy sports are games of skill.
        akerl_ 11y ago
        Probably worth checking out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq785nJ0FXQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq785nJ0FXQ The relevant point being that not everybody believes they're a "game of skill" in the "skill vs. chance" slider which is relevant to the law. While there's no question that like every game, user actions (skill) can impact the outcome, how much it can impact the outcome is what determines whether something is classified as a game of skill or chance. Perhaps it's more clear if we say "a game of primarily skill" or "primarily chance". If daily fantasy sports is primarily skill-based, they can do it. If it's primarily chance-based, it's illegal in the US. Which is why they're pushing for it to be referred to as "skill-based".
        dragonwriter 11y ago
        Some laws use a predominance test; New York law, which seems to be the main focus, does not -- it uses material element of chance standard, which can apply even when a game is primarily skill-based.
    - 11y ago
  - mrchicity 11y ago
    Beating the point spread wagering on NFL games is also a game of skill then. There are some sports betters who are better at analyzing data than the bookies are who consistently make money. Very few games that we'd call gambling (e.g. blackjack) are 100% chance though. Maybe dice games? Lotteries? Even in games where the house always has edge, you can lose less by playing optimally.
    - TheLogothete 11y ago
      In sports betting, the odds are dynamically adjusted by the operator, who is also part of the game. Not quite the same as poker. Losing less does not mean you can win, which is the case in poker. To the best of my knowledge, it is the case in fantasy sports too.
    - avn2109 11y ago
      >> "...100% chance..." Roulette and slot machines.
- Ntrails 11y ago
  In general I'd say gambling is seen as "Playing games of chance [with money] for the entertainment/enjoyment value". Honestly though I reckon it's a fine line between a person day trading their pension, a spread better and a poker player. At the very least I'd love to see how it's distinguished legally.