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There's a difference between acquiring language and learning one as an adult. Children don't need to apply rules to learn a language- they acquire it unconsciou

There's a difference between acquiring language and learning one as an adult. Children don't need to apply rules to learn a language- they acquire it unconsciously. Adults actually DO need to learn the rules. At least, that's what I remember from Linguistics 101. Here's my preferred way to chop a circle up to determine the area: http://www.drcruzan.com/Images/Mathematics/Circles/AreaByRearrangementFigure.png http://www.drcruzan.com/Images/Mathematics/Circles/AreaByRea...

kmicklas 11y ago
> Children don't need to apply rules to learn a language- they acquire it unconsciously. Adults actually DO need to learn the rules. This has been called into a lot more question recently. Anecdotally I don't buy it based on my experiences. I think think children are probably only better at learning new sounds and developing a native-sounding accent.
- mchaver 11y ago
  I agree. They both learn rules, but mostly unconsciously. Adults generally bring a lot of baggage. They already have a language with which they will compare the language they are learning. A lot of classes focus on teaching the rules of grammar and pronunciation in a direct way. I would guess that most second language learners that learn well do so through interaction with speakers of the target language with an attempt to imitate the native speakers. Through imitation you pick up on the patterns and get a feel for what is correct, but you aren't necessarily listing formulas in your head about how to create those sentences. Prosody is an important part of speech and second language learners can attain that as well, but it is general not formally taught or generally documented in a rule format for most languages, mostly learned through observation and imitation.
  - GolDDranks 11y ago
    What is meant by "rules" is, of course, dependant on the definition, but in the field of SLA (second-language acquisition), "rules" are commonly understood to be like rules presented in language classrooms, and separate from "some kind of internal systematic (implicit) knowledge of language". What's the role of rules in language acquisition is being debated. Check this essay Against "rules" by SLA researchers Jason Rothman and Bill VanPatten. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263791085_Against_rules https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263791085_Against_r... EDIT: This non-expert article by the same author is more approachable: https://www.actfl.org/sites/default/files/images/TLE/TLE_OctNov14_Article.pdf https://www.actfl.org/sites/default/files/images/TLE/TLE_Oct...
GolDDranks 11y ago
Not true. Adults are ABLE to learn rules, but they don't NEED to learn them (there's plenty of evidence of adult language immersion). Also, doubt exists whether knowing some rules explicitly is of any help when trying to use language in a realtime timeframe. And there's also continuous debate whether it's even possible to "transfer" rules from explicit knowledge into an "automatized" linguistic skill. Some researchers note that "rules" as presented on language classes have nothing to do with the inner representation of language, and are thus of no help. (Except when explicitly "thinking" about language.)
- TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
  I agree. This has always been my feeling about learning a second language as an adult. English is my first (only) language. I've been making a half-hearted effort to learn Spanish the past few months. Recently someone was trying to teach me a handful of rules and I kept trying to tell them 'I don't care, it doesn't matter if, at this stage, I use the wrong verb ending, or even if I say araña (spider) instead of naranja (orange), it won't matter so long as you know I'm trying to ask for an orange to eat or tell you there's a spider outside by the door, understanding has been achieved - that's what's important. We are all just trying to understand each other. Maybe children have an advantage because they aren't able to talk properly when they are young due to physical growth limits, so we make a lot of effort to teach them. It takes children 5 year to reach 95% - 100% language fluency, and will go on to learn many new words over the next 15 years, and some will go on to study their mother tongue, read, and learn more about their and, other languages, all their lives. By 5 years of age, anyone (including unfamiliar listeners) should be able to understand the child’s speech in conversation 95-100% of the time.[1] I'm willing to bet $100 dollars anyone in full language immersion will reach at least that stage of fluency in 5 years. And remember, children can be very talkative, so they're always making mistakes and learning. I guess adult language learning is how it is because adults are generally too busy to make that sort of commitment. It then follows as self evident that children and adults learn languages differently. Adults solution space is constrained. We have to try to learn a language around busy adult lives. Children's brains are also still developing, so there's going to be some physical differences also, it's not clear whether that should be an advantage or disadvantage. Maybe being able to map a second language to what you already know is an advantage, we already have a framework. 1. http://www.speechpathologyaustralia.org.au/library/2013Factsheets/Factsheet_Sound_of_Speech_PreschoolSchool-aged_children.pdf http://www.speechpathologyaustralia.org.au/library/2013Facts...
dilap 11y ago
este es falso, en mi experiencia. yo nunca he aprendido ninguna regla formal de español, pero puedo hablar más o menos fácilmente en esa lengua – algo que aprendí solo por hablar y leer, como cualquier niño. pero empecé cuando tenía 30.

kmicklas 11y ago

> Children don't need to apply rules to learn a language- they acquire it unconsciously. Adults actually DO need to learn the rules. This has been called into a lot more question recently. Anecdotally I don't buy it based on my experiences. I think think children are probably only better at learning new sounds and developing a native-sounding accent.

mchaver 11y ago
I agree. They both learn rules, but mostly unconsciously. Adults generally bring a lot of baggage. They already have a language with which they will compare the language they are learning. A lot of classes focus on teaching the rules of grammar and pronunciation in a direct way. I would guess that most second language learners that learn well do so through interaction with speakers of the target language with an attempt to imitate the native speakers. Through imitation you pick up on the patterns and get a feel for what is correct, but you aren't necessarily listing formulas in your head about how to create those sentences. Prosody is an important part of speech and second language learners can attain that as well, but it is general not formally taught or generally documented in a rule format for most languages, mostly learned through observation and imitation.
- GolDDranks 11y ago
  What is meant by "rules" is, of course, dependant on the definition, but in the field of SLA (second-language acquisition), "rules" are commonly understood to be like rules presented in language classrooms, and separate from "some kind of internal systematic (implicit) knowledge of language". What's the role of rules in language acquisition is being debated. Check this essay Against "rules" by SLA researchers Jason Rothman and Bill VanPatten. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263791085_Against_rules https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263791085_Against_r... EDIT: This non-expert article by the same author is more approachable: https://www.actfl.org/sites/default/files/images/TLE/TLE_OctNov14_Article.pdf https://www.actfl.org/sites/default/files/images/TLE/TLE_Oct...

GolDDranks 11y ago

Not true. Adults are ABLE to learn rules, but they don't NEED to learn them (there's plenty of evidence of adult language immersion). Also, doubt exists whether knowing some rules explicitly is of any help when trying to use language in a realtime timeframe. And there's also continuous debate whether it's even possible to "transfer" rules from explicit knowledge into an "automatized" linguistic skill. Some researchers note that "rules" as presented on language classes have nothing to do with the inner representation of language, and are thus of no help. (Except when explicitly "thinking" about language.)

TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
I agree. This has always been my feeling about learning a second language as an adult. English is my first (only) language. I've been making a half-hearted effort to learn Spanish the past few months. Recently someone was trying to teach me a handful of rules and I kept trying to tell them 'I don't care, it doesn't matter if, at this stage, I use the wrong verb ending, or even if I say araña (spider) instead of naranja (orange), it won't matter so long as you know I'm trying to ask for an orange to eat or tell you there's a spider outside by the door, understanding has been achieved - that's what's important. We are all just trying to understand each other. Maybe children have an advantage because they aren't able to talk properly when they are young due to physical growth limits, so we make a lot of effort to teach them. It takes children 5 year to reach 95% - 100% language fluency, and will go on to learn many new words over the next 15 years, and some will go on to study their mother tongue, read, and learn more about their and, other languages, all their lives. By 5 years of age, anyone (including unfamiliar listeners) should be able to understand the child’s speech in conversation 95-100% of the time.[1] I'm willing to bet $100 dollars anyone in full language immersion will reach at least that stage of fluency in 5 years. And remember, children can be very talkative, so they're always making mistakes and learning. I guess adult language learning is how it is because adults are generally too busy to make that sort of commitment. It then follows as self evident that children and adults learn languages differently. Adults solution space is constrained. We have to try to learn a language around busy adult lives. Children's brains are also still developing, so there's going to be some physical differences also, it's not clear whether that should be an advantage or disadvantage. Maybe being able to map a second language to what you already know is an advantage, we already have a framework. 1. http://www.speechpathologyaustralia.org.au/library/2013Factsheets/Factsheet_Sound_of_Speech_PreschoolSchool-aged_children.pdf http://www.speechpathologyaustralia.org.au/library/2013Facts...

dilap 11y ago

este es falso, en mi experiencia. yo nunca he aprendido ninguna regla formal de español, pero puedo hablar más o menos fácilmente en esa lengua – algo que aprendí solo por hablar y leer, como cualquier niño. pero empecé cuando tenía 30.