4 ms·

There is no actual "revolt" because both Apple and Amazon make sure it doesn't happen by using CBR. You're right in that consumers don't care about it all that

by swang 11y ago

There is no actual "revolt" because both Apple and Amazon make sure it doesn't happen by using CBR. You're right in that consumers don't care about it all that much. But let's say Amazon decides to go with VBR to save space and download speed, now there's an easy way for Apple to attack Amazon. "We never dip below a certain quality. Amazon does. We care. Amazon doesn't" Maybe that ad/slogan works, or maybe it doesn't. But if you're Amazon would you be willing to risk some weird consumer backlash over it? And if you're Apple it is an easy point to attack, and if it doesn't work, no harm no foul (and then secretly also switch to VBR and announce it at the next Apple conference!)

dexterdog 11y ago
And the VBR company can claim that their codec gets higher that the others when it needs to giving better definition to the complex parts of the sound. It's not a hard sell and most people won't care.
- lbotos 11y ago
  Except I'm reasonably intelligent and still get CBRs because irrationally I don't trust VBR files (and VBRs with DJ software)
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    Have you noticed a difference in handling of VBRs in your DJ software? I use Mixxx, and that's not been something I've noticed. Someone I regularly have tag-team DJed with uses VirtualDJ and he never complained about me sharing VBR files with him. I have noticed that older pre-2.0 versions of Mixxx would sometimes get glitchy (warbly) when using the pitch-correction feature (key lock, I think is the name in the UI), but, I don't think it's related to VBR vs CBR, but I never thought to check. The only time I've noticed an audible sound quality problem when DJing was with low bit rate (usually 128kbps) files.
    - lbotos 11y ago
      Not specifically. I play around with Mixxx but use Traktor in the club. It's more about software stability than anything inherent in the sound. I've had a handful of sets go south (which ultimately is enough) due to freezes etc that I'm wary (unnecessarily so. I'm sure they are fine, but It's more about "simplifying variables in arguable a super complex system.)
    - rryan 11y ago
      Mixxx developer here -- can confirm our VBR decoding code is slightly less reliable than CBR! It's easier when you know exactly how many samples you're going to get out of a frame. We rewrote a bunch of this in 2.1 (coming in Q1 2016) so hopefully a few odd VBR quirks we had got fixed. The warbling definitely sounds like our pre-2.0 time stretching algorithm to me. The new one in 2.0 is much better.
      - SwellJoe 11y ago
        I love Mixxx! 2.0 beta is really fantastic. And, it's enough better and more reliable than 1.11 that I'm confused why y'all haven't done a stable release from that branch (but, it's good to hear it's coming). I haven't noticed the warbling since upgrading to the beta, I don't think, and a number of other big annoyances and crashers have also gone away. The additional capabilities (I upgraded specifically to be able to use the mic/mixer inputs on my controller, which 1.11 can't do, at all) and the nicer scratching and such is just great. In short: I see you've got a call out for testers of the RC; but, honestly, I already believe 2.0 in versions from months ago are more reliable and capable than 1.11. Anything that delays a release of 2.0 is just leaving lower quality software in the wild for longer than necessary. Anyway, I really appreciate your work on Mixxx. I don't get to do audio or music work much these days, but I do occasional DJ gigs (mostly for free for non-profit orgs and such, but sometimes they're paying gigs), and it's been a whole lot of fun.
        rryan 11y ago
        Glad you like it :). We're working on the last mile stuff right now (updating the manual, website, etc.) -- it will definitely be out before new years!
SwellJoe 11y ago
So...um...Apple and Amazon have been shipping VBR files for years.
- swang 11y ago
  I am not sure if there's confusion or what but this is literally discussed in the article. So I am not sure what you're arguing exactly. The article discusses how the VBR files have been encoded with minimum bitrate constraints in the fear that someone will make a big deal out of it if it dips "too low"
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    VBR with a mininum bit rate != CBR. And, to be clear, the article is making a guess that Amazon or Apple are imposing a minimum bit rate to insure some lower bound on file size. I don't think there is really any solid evidence that Amazon or Apple are making decisions based on trying to make file sizes bigger to convince consumers they're getting "more value". I took exception to the premise, which is why I commented above. I don't believe Apple and Amazon are making decisions based on trying to increase file sizes, and I find it weird that the article suggest they are. I believe they are trying to maximize audio quality at smaller file sizes. Evidence seems to indicate that is what is happening. And, we've come full circle to the point of my initial comment. I don't think the argument he's making about maintaining large file sizes is backed by evidence or a particularly good understanding of consumer behavior/preference. I do think his guesses about the Netflix algorithm are interesting, but his digression into consumer behavior is less so, IMHO.
- rpgmaker 11y ago
  Amazon has been selling what appear to be insanely high v0 mp3s for years now. Of course, there's no way to know for sure. This is what they claim "Where possible, we encode our MP3 files using variable bit rates for optimal audio quality and file sizes, aiming at an average of 256 kilobits per second (kbps)" but the bit rates suggest insane v0 to me.

by swang 11y ago

dexterdog 11y ago

And the VBR company can claim that their codec gets higher that the others when it needs to giving better definition to the complex parts of the sound. It's not a hard sell and most people won't care.

lbotos 11y ago
Except I'm reasonably intelligent and still get CBRs because irrationally I don't trust VBR files (and VBRs with DJ software)
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  Have you noticed a difference in handling of VBRs in your DJ software? I use Mixxx, and that's not been something I've noticed. Someone I regularly have tag-team DJed with uses VirtualDJ and he never complained about me sharing VBR files with him. I have noticed that older pre-2.0 versions of Mixxx would sometimes get glitchy (warbly) when using the pitch-correction feature (key lock, I think is the name in the UI), but, I don't think it's related to VBR vs CBR, but I never thought to check. The only time I've noticed an audible sound quality problem when DJing was with low bit rate (usually 128kbps) files.
  - lbotos 11y ago
    Not specifically. I play around with Mixxx but use Traktor in the club. It's more about software stability than anything inherent in the sound. I've had a handful of sets go south (which ultimately is enough) due to freezes etc that I'm wary (unnecessarily so. I'm sure they are fine, but It's more about "simplifying variables in arguable a super complex system.)
  - rryan 11y ago
    Mixxx developer here -- can confirm our VBR decoding code is slightly less reliable than CBR! It's easier when you know exactly how many samples you're going to get out of a frame. We rewrote a bunch of this in 2.1 (coming in Q1 2016) so hopefully a few odd VBR quirks we had got fixed. The warbling definitely sounds like our pre-2.0 time stretching algorithm to me. The new one in 2.0 is much better.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      I love Mixxx! 2.0 beta is really fantastic. And, it's enough better and more reliable than 1.11 that I'm confused why y'all haven't done a stable release from that branch (but, it's good to hear it's coming). I haven't noticed the warbling since upgrading to the beta, I don't think, and a number of other big annoyances and crashers have also gone away. The additional capabilities (I upgraded specifically to be able to use the mic/mixer inputs on my controller, which 1.11 can't do, at all) and the nicer scratching and such is just great. In short: I see you've got a call out for testers of the RC; but, honestly, I already believe 2.0 in versions from months ago are more reliable and capable than 1.11. Anything that delays a release of 2.0 is just leaving lower quality software in the wild for longer than necessary. Anyway, I really appreciate your work on Mixxx. I don't get to do audio or music work much these days, but I do occasional DJ gigs (mostly for free for non-profit orgs and such, but sometimes they're paying gigs), and it's been a whole lot of fun.
      - rryan 11y ago
        Glad you like it :). We're working on the last mile stuff right now (updating the manual, website, etc.) -- it will definitely be out before new years!

SwellJoe 11y ago

So...um...Apple and Amazon have been shipping VBR files for years.

swang 11y ago
I am not sure if there's confusion or what but this is literally discussed in the article. So I am not sure what you're arguing exactly. The article discusses how the VBR files have been encoded with minimum bitrate constraints in the fear that someone will make a big deal out of it if it dips "too low"
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  VBR with a mininum bit rate != CBR. And, to be clear, the article is making a guess that Amazon or Apple are imposing a minimum bit rate to insure some lower bound on file size. I don't think there is really any solid evidence that Amazon or Apple are making decisions based on trying to make file sizes bigger to convince consumers they're getting "more value". I took exception to the premise, which is why I commented above. I don't believe Apple and Amazon are making decisions based on trying to increase file sizes, and I find it weird that the article suggest they are. I believe they are trying to maximize audio quality at smaller file sizes. Evidence seems to indicate that is what is happening. And, we've come full circle to the point of my initial comment. I don't think the argument he's making about maintaining large file sizes is backed by evidence or a particularly good understanding of consumer behavior/preference. I do think his guesses about the Netflix algorithm are interesting, but his digression into consumer behavior is less so, IMHO.
rpgmaker 11y ago
Amazon has been selling what appear to be insanely high v0 mp3s for years now. Of course, there's no way to know for sure. This is what they claim "Where possible, we encode our MP3 files using variable bit rates for optimal audio quality and file sizes, aiming at an average of 256 kilobits per second (kbps)" but the bit rates suggest insane v0 to me.