5 ms·

At least with the auto industry, the unions were able to offer some protections for the worker. How many programmers belong to a union?

jerf 11y ago
Unions can't do anything about the company you're working for running out of resources. That's not what they are for.
- gaius 11y ago
  The can ensure the pie is sliced more fairly tho'.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    And lobby for more sane tax for employee share options.
- serge2k 11y ago
  They can help protect you from getting screwed over while the execs walk away with millions.
  - gozur88 11y ago
    Not generally, no. The exception was the GM bailout, where the unions used political muscle to get moved ahead of secured creditors. That's the only case of which I'm aware, though.
rebootthesystem 11y ago
> How many programmers belong to a union? Thankfully none. One of the main reasons the car companies stumbled are unions. The whole thing has degenerated to insanity squared. For example, GM had a clause in their contract requiring them to not fire employees displaced by technology or automation. In other words, if you improve your workflow and process and can do the same work with 25 people instead of 100, you can't fire the people you no-longer need. All incentives to innovate in process and technology very quickly evaporate with such insanity in place. They reportedly had thousands of people show up for "work" every day drawing 95% salaries and full benefits only to go to this building, read the newspaper and drink coffee all day. Unions had their day and reason to exist. I am not proposing they need to disappear. However, they need to mutate into something that works towards a mutually beneficial and sustainable ecosystem. By pushing for, and obtaining, ridiculous grants, they create short term apparent gains and HUGE long term losses as thousands of people lose their jobs when they industry they worked in simply crumbles under the weight of onerous arrangements that cause them to lose the ability to compete and remain financially viable. In fact, if you look at Detroit, one could argue the unions went beyond costing people their jobs and companies their ability to compete, they actually succeeded at destroying a whole city. How is this, in any imaginable reality, good? A couple of articles: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114118143005186163 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114118143005186163 This one covers other issues: http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explains-gms-problems-with-the-uaw/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explain... From the Forbes article: "A worker might be able to retire in his early 50s and collect an annual pension of $37,500, paid wholly by GM. By 2008 there were 4.6 retired GM employees for each active worker. Did anyone think this was sustainable?" It's called "killing the golden goose".
- mtberatwork 11y ago
  I'm having a hard time taking the links seriously. The WSJ article is behind a paywall so I am unable to read it. However, it's dated 2006 which would mean it was authored at the height of Wall Street "shenanigans" (for lack of a better term) while the Forbes article appears to be a canned editorial written by the Ayn Rand Institute.
  - rebootthesystem 11y ago
    I understand your point. The beauty of it is: This is math, not opinion. If you doubt any of it, all you have to do is fire-up Excel and work the numbers. For example, try to answer the question about how GM can survive, grow and innovate when it has nearly 5 retired employees for every one current employee. And, every single one of those retirees is drawing a huge percentage of their salaries as their pension, for life, as well as enjoying tremendous paid benefits. The problem here is the divide between people who have business experience and those who do not. Any small business person understands, without having to run any calculations, that having the cost of a position multiplied by 6 (because you are paying 1 active worker and 5 retirees) is utterly unsustainable. Or that, installing a series of automated welders while not being able to lay off 50 people is a formula for bankruptcy. Do you hire a gardener, cleaning service or pool person? Imagine having to continue paying them 80% of their monthly fees after they retire. And then you have to hire a new service to do the job. Now you go out and buy a robotic lawn mower, vacuum or pool cleaner. And you can't fire them. You have to continue paying those service providers for a service they will not be performing because their contract says so. Forever. Get the point? We can engage in the fallacy of attacking the source all we want, yet, it is impossible to attack the math, which is the point here. These arrangements are mathematically predetermined to result in the destruction of companies and jobs unless Superman comes down from the skies and brings with him a supernatural solution of some sort. Or, we pretend all is well, grab some tax money to continue propping them up and shift the problem forward to another generation. Which is exactly what we've been doing with both unions and government programs.
- pm24601 11y ago
  Ah, yes. The unions got GM to kill electric vehicle investment. Ah, yes. The unions got GM to become lazy with quality and innovation in the 60's and 70's when GM had 60%+ market share. Ah, yes. The unions forced automobile manufacturing management to take huge pay packages. Ah, yes. The unions with their silly demands for a 40hour work , and sick leave (which the majority of Americans still don't have) Read something other than wall street journal and forbes to get better info about unions.
rwmj 11y ago
I'm a member of Prospect[1], a non-party-affiliated union for professionals. It's mainly good for getting legal advice if the company you work for tries to screw you over, so it's pretty relevant to the company/article being discussed (except Prospect is a UK union, but there are US equivalents). The cost is relatively trivial compared to a programmer's salary - about £200/yr. Unfortunately you can't claim it against tax in the UK. [1] https://www.prospect.org.uk/ https://www.prospect.org.uk/
walshemj 11y ago
More than you might think including a former CEO of a FTSE 100 Company who in the past was an activist and not just a member.

jerf 11y ago

Unions can't do anything about the company you're working for running out of resources. That's not what they are for.

gaius 11y ago
The can ensure the pie is sliced more fairly tho'.
- walshemj 11y ago
  And lobby for more sane tax for employee share options.
serge2k 11y ago
They can help protect you from getting screwed over while the execs walk away with millions.
- gozur88 11y ago
  Not generally, no. The exception was the GM bailout, where the unions used political muscle to get moved ahead of secured creditors. That's the only case of which I'm aware, though.

rebootthesystem 11y ago

> How many programmers belong to a union? Thankfully none. One of the main reasons the car companies stumbled are unions. The whole thing has degenerated to insanity squared. For example, GM had a clause in their contract requiring them to not fire employees displaced by technology or automation. In other words, if you improve your workflow and process and can do the same work with 25 people instead of 100, you can't fire the people you no-longer need. All incentives to innovate in process and technology very quickly evaporate with such insanity in place. They reportedly had thousands of people show up for "work" every day drawing 95% salaries and full benefits only to go to this building, read the newspaper and drink coffee all day. Unions had their day and reason to exist. I am not proposing they need to disappear. However, they need to mutate into something that works towards a mutually beneficial and sustainable ecosystem. By pushing for, and obtaining, ridiculous grants, they create short term apparent gains and HUGE long term losses as thousands of people lose their jobs when they industry they worked in simply crumbles under the weight of onerous arrangements that cause them to lose the ability to compete and remain financially viable. In fact, if you look at Detroit, one could argue the unions went beyond costing people their jobs and companies their ability to compete, they actually succeeded at destroying a whole city. How is this, in any imaginable reality, good? A couple of articles: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114118143005186163 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114118143005186163 This one covers other issues: http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explains-gms-problems-with-the-uaw/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explain... From the Forbes article: "A worker might be able to retire in his early 50s and collect an annual pension of $37,500, paid wholly by GM. By 2008 there were 4.6 retired GM employees for each active worker. Did anyone think this was sustainable?" It's called "killing the golden goose".

mtberatwork 11y ago
I'm having a hard time taking the links seriously. The WSJ article is behind a paywall so I am unable to read it. However, it's dated 2006 which would mean it was authored at the height of Wall Street "shenanigans" (for lack of a better term) while the Forbes article appears to be a canned editorial written by the Ayn Rand Institute.
- rebootthesystem 11y ago
  I understand your point. The beauty of it is: This is math, not opinion. If you doubt any of it, all you have to do is fire-up Excel and work the numbers. For example, try to answer the question about how GM can survive, grow and innovate when it has nearly 5 retired employees for every one current employee. And, every single one of those retirees is drawing a huge percentage of their salaries as their pension, for life, as well as enjoying tremendous paid benefits. The problem here is the divide between people who have business experience and those who do not. Any small business person understands, without having to run any calculations, that having the cost of a position multiplied by 6 (because you are paying 1 active worker and 5 retirees) is utterly unsustainable. Or that, installing a series of automated welders while not being able to lay off 50 people is a formula for bankruptcy. Do you hire a gardener, cleaning service or pool person? Imagine having to continue paying them 80% of their monthly fees after they retire. And then you have to hire a new service to do the job. Now you go out and buy a robotic lawn mower, vacuum or pool cleaner. And you can't fire them. You have to continue paying those service providers for a service they will not be performing because their contract says so. Forever. Get the point? We can engage in the fallacy of attacking the source all we want, yet, it is impossible to attack the math, which is the point here. These arrangements are mathematically predetermined to result in the destruction of companies and jobs unless Superman comes down from the skies and brings with him a supernatural solution of some sort. Or, we pretend all is well, grab some tax money to continue propping them up and shift the problem forward to another generation. Which is exactly what we've been doing with both unions and government programs.
pm24601 11y ago
Ah, yes. The unions got GM to kill electric vehicle investment. Ah, yes. The unions got GM to become lazy with quality and innovation in the 60's and 70's when GM had 60%+ market share. Ah, yes. The unions forced automobile manufacturing management to take huge pay packages. Ah, yes. The unions with their silly demands for a 40hour work , and sick leave (which the majority of Americans still don't have) Read something other than wall street journal and forbes to get better info about unions.

rwmj 11y ago

I'm a member of Prospect[1], a non-party-affiliated union for professionals. It's mainly good for getting legal advice if the company you work for tries to screw you over, so it's pretty relevant to the company/article being discussed (except Prospect is a UK union, but there are US equivalents). The cost is relatively trivial compared to a programmer's salary - about £200/yr. Unfortunately you can't claim it against tax in the UK. [1] https://www.prospect.org.uk/ https://www.prospect.org.uk/

walshemj 11y ago

More than you might think including a former CEO of a FTSE 100 Company who in the past was an activist and not just a member.