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Has that ever happened? I mean, have there been consumer revolts over bit rate that have cost Apple or Amazon customers? Pono and Tidal don't seem to be killing

Has that ever happened? I mean, have there been consumer revolts over bit rate that have cost Apple or Amazon customers? Pono and Tidal don't seem to be killing the existing players, but perhaps I'm just not up to speed on the state of the industry.

swang 11y ago
There is no actual "revolt" because both Apple and Amazon make sure it doesn't happen by using CBR. You're right in that consumers don't care about it all that much. But let's say Amazon decides to go with VBR to save space and download speed, now there's an easy way for Apple to attack Amazon. "We never dip below a certain quality. Amazon does. We care. Amazon doesn't" Maybe that ad/slogan works, or maybe it doesn't. But if you're Amazon would you be willing to risk some weird consumer backlash over it? And if you're Apple it is an easy point to attack, and if it doesn't work, no harm no foul (and then secretly also switch to VBR and announce it at the next Apple conference!)
- dexterdog 11y ago
  And the VBR company can claim that their codec gets higher that the others when it needs to giving better definition to the complex parts of the sound. It's not a hard sell and most people won't care.
  - lbotos 11y ago
    Except I'm reasonably intelligent and still get CBRs because irrationally I don't trust VBR files (and VBRs with DJ software)
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      Have you noticed a difference in handling of VBRs in your DJ software? I use Mixxx, and that's not been something I've noticed. Someone I regularly have tag-team DJed with uses VirtualDJ and he never complained about me sharing VBR files with him. I have noticed that older pre-2.0 versions of Mixxx would sometimes get glitchy (warbly) when using the pitch-correction feature (key lock, I think is the name in the UI), but, I don't think it's related to VBR vs CBR, but I never thought to check. The only time I've noticed an audible sound quality problem when DJing was with low bit rate (usually 128kbps) files.
      - lbotos 11y ago
        Not specifically. I play around with Mixxx but use Traktor in the club. It's more about software stability than anything inherent in the sound. I've had a handful of sets go south (which ultimately is enough) due to freezes etc that I'm wary (unnecessarily so. I'm sure they are fine, but It's more about "simplifying variables in arguable a super complex system.)
      - rryan 11y ago
        Mixxx developer here -- can confirm our VBR decoding code is slightly less reliable than CBR! It's easier when you know exactly how many samples you're going to get out of a frame. We rewrote a bunch of this in 2.1 (coming in Q1 2016) so hopefully a few odd VBR quirks we had got fixed. The warbling definitely sounds like our pre-2.0 time stretching algorithm to me. The new one in 2.0 is much better.
        SwellJoe 11y ago
        I love Mixxx! 2.0 beta is really fantastic. And, it's enough better and more reliable than 1.11 that I'm confused why y'all haven't done a stable release from that branch (but, it's good to hear it's coming). I haven't noticed the warbling since upgrading to the beta, I don't think, and a number of other big annoyances and crashers have also gone away. The additional capabilities (I upgraded specifically to be able to use the mic/mixer inputs on my controller, which 1.11 can't do, at all) and the nicer scratching and such is just great. In short: I see you've got a call out for testers of the RC; but, honestly, I already believe 2.0 in versions from months ago are more reliable and capable than 1.11. Anything that delays a release of 2.0 is just leaving lower quality software in the wild for longer than necessary. Anyway, I really appreciate your work on Mixxx. I don't get to do audio or music work much these days, but I do occasional DJ gigs (mostly for free for non-profit orgs and such, but sometimes they're paying gigs), and it's been a whole lot of fun.
        rryan 11y ago
        Glad you like it :). We're working on the last mile stuff right now (updating the manual, website, etc.) -- it will definitely be out before new years!
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  So...um...Apple and Amazon have been shipping VBR files for years.
  - swang 11y ago
    I am not sure if there's confusion or what but this is literally discussed in the article. So I am not sure what you're arguing exactly. The article discusses how the VBR files have been encoded with minimum bitrate constraints in the fear that someone will make a big deal out of it if it dips "too low"
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      VBR with a mininum bit rate != CBR. And, to be clear, the article is making a guess that Amazon or Apple are imposing a minimum bit rate to insure some lower bound on file size. I don't think there is really any solid evidence that Amazon or Apple are making decisions based on trying to make file sizes bigger to convince consumers they're getting "more value". I took exception to the premise, which is why I commented above. I don't believe Apple and Amazon are making decisions based on trying to increase file sizes, and I find it weird that the article suggest they are. I believe they are trying to maximize audio quality at smaller file sizes. Evidence seems to indicate that is what is happening. And, we've come full circle to the point of my initial comment. I don't think the argument he's making about maintaining large file sizes is backed by evidence or a particularly good understanding of consumer behavior/preference. I do think his guesses about the Netflix algorithm are interesting, but his digression into consumer behavior is less so, IMHO.
  - rpgmaker 11y ago
    Amazon has been selling what appear to be insanely high v0 mp3s for years now. Of course, there's no way to know for sure. This is what they claim "Where possible, we encode our MP3 files using variable bit rates for optimal audio quality and file sizes, aiming at an average of 256 kilobits per second (kbps)" but the bit rates suggest insane v0 to me.
jonhohle 11y ago
The opposite has happened. Steve Jobs introduced H.264 as providing significantly higher quality at the same or lower bitrate. He shows an still from an existing MPEG-4 video and then a much higher resolution still from an H.264 encoded MPEG-4 video and claims that they require the same bitrate. He brings out Frank Casanova who goes on for 5 minutes or so about quality at lower bitrates. [0] IIRC, Apple also sold AAC as requiring lower bandwidth for the same quality, but I don't recall when that was. 0 - https://youtu.be/dPCNUExWR6I?t=3271 https://youtu.be/dPCNUExWR6I?t=3271
- colanderman 11y ago
  It is a bit disingenuous to compare video codec quality using stills. One can simply choose a key frame (= no temporal compression) to compare, and they'd likely be identical regardless of how well the codecs compress motion in non-key frames. (Not sure if the video clarifies this point since I cannot watch it right now.)
xorcist 11y ago
Quality of recorded music today has much more to do with mastering than bit rates and codecs. I certainly would prefer a 128 kbps version of a twenty year old mastering than a 192 kbps version of the modern remaster. That has led to a consumer revolt of sorts, for people who care about audio. That's not a large enough group to make a difference to the big record companies, but it is large enough that catering to them is a good business model in itself.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  The two are unrelated issues. 128kbps mp3 files do sound pretty bad, especially on the high end and during very dynamic parts. It is audible to me, regardless of the quality of the original recording and its mastering. And, while we're talking, I'll point out that the loudness wars began roughly 20 years ago, so you may need to go back to an even earlier mastering to get the really good stuff. Certainly it was more pronounced through the late 90s and 00s, but I remember the first few records I bought that suffered badly from over-compression, and they were released around 1994-1996. The multi-band compression that has killed many great recordings began to see usage around that time as well, though it peaked much later (it was expensive to start with).
Brian-Puccio 11y ago
> Has that ever happened? I'm not sure if it has ever happened with bitrates in audio files, but the megapixel war comes to mind. 36 MP in a point-n-shoot? Must be better than the 12 MP in a Canon 5D DSLR since 36 is way more than 12.
tomphoolery 11y ago
It depends on the reason why you're buying the track. You can find all the great electronic music on iTunes, but the sound quality isn't as good as on Juno or Beatport. DJs shop at stores other than iTunes because the sound quality is a consistent 320 kbps (or WAV) and a track won't sound "bad" just because it's a slightly lower quality played in between two higher quality tracks. You can tell if you play them next to each other, on an expensive club sound system. Other than that, you probably can't.
- S_A_P 11y ago
  A club system is hardly something that I would call hi fidelity. Most PA systems are designed for injecting high spl music/audio in the frequency range of ~40-10khz.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    Club systems vary wildly. I usually provide my own gear, and it's quite high end (JBL SRX700 series subs, and PRX 625 mains), and is more accurate than most home stereos, while also being dangerously loud. But, I can't hear the difference between a ~200kbps mp3 and a FLAC through that system. I probably couldn't consistently hear the difference on my headphones (also high end) or my studio monitors (again, quite high end), either. That said, a 128kbps mp3 through a really loud system tends to sound harsh. It is definitely audible, even to untrained ears. But, anything above 192kbps, or so, is fine and any flaws that might be audible in an ideal listening environment are lost in the general noise of the club environment.

swang 11y ago

There is no actual "revolt" because both Apple and Amazon make sure it doesn't happen by using CBR. You're right in that consumers don't care about it all that much. But let's say Amazon decides to go with VBR to save space and download speed, now there's an easy way for Apple to attack Amazon. "We never dip below a certain quality. Amazon does. We care. Amazon doesn't" Maybe that ad/slogan works, or maybe it doesn't. But if you're Amazon would you be willing to risk some weird consumer backlash over it? And if you're Apple it is an easy point to attack, and if it doesn't work, no harm no foul (and then secretly also switch to VBR and announce it at the next Apple conference!)

dexterdog 11y ago
And the VBR company can claim that their codec gets higher that the others when it needs to giving better definition to the complex parts of the sound. It's not a hard sell and most people won't care.
- lbotos 11y ago
  Except I'm reasonably intelligent and still get CBRs because irrationally I don't trust VBR files (and VBRs with DJ software)
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    Have you noticed a difference in handling of VBRs in your DJ software? I use Mixxx, and that's not been something I've noticed. Someone I regularly have tag-team DJed with uses VirtualDJ and he never complained about me sharing VBR files with him. I have noticed that older pre-2.0 versions of Mixxx would sometimes get glitchy (warbly) when using the pitch-correction feature (key lock, I think is the name in the UI), but, I don't think it's related to VBR vs CBR, but I never thought to check. The only time I've noticed an audible sound quality problem when DJing was with low bit rate (usually 128kbps) files.
    - lbotos 11y ago
      Not specifically. I play around with Mixxx but use Traktor in the club. It's more about software stability than anything inherent in the sound. I've had a handful of sets go south (which ultimately is enough) due to freezes etc that I'm wary (unnecessarily so. I'm sure they are fine, but It's more about "simplifying variables in arguable a super complex system.)
    - rryan 11y ago
      Mixxx developer here -- can confirm our VBR decoding code is slightly less reliable than CBR! It's easier when you know exactly how many samples you're going to get out of a frame. We rewrote a bunch of this in 2.1 (coming in Q1 2016) so hopefully a few odd VBR quirks we had got fixed. The warbling definitely sounds like our pre-2.0 time stretching algorithm to me. The new one in 2.0 is much better.
      - SwellJoe 11y ago
        I love Mixxx! 2.0 beta is really fantastic. And, it's enough better and more reliable than 1.11 that I'm confused why y'all haven't done a stable release from that branch (but, it's good to hear it's coming). I haven't noticed the warbling since upgrading to the beta, I don't think, and a number of other big annoyances and crashers have also gone away. The additional capabilities (I upgraded specifically to be able to use the mic/mixer inputs on my controller, which 1.11 can't do, at all) and the nicer scratching and such is just great. In short: I see you've got a call out for testers of the RC; but, honestly, I already believe 2.0 in versions from months ago are more reliable and capable than 1.11. Anything that delays a release of 2.0 is just leaving lower quality software in the wild for longer than necessary. Anyway, I really appreciate your work on Mixxx. I don't get to do audio or music work much these days, but I do occasional DJ gigs (mostly for free for non-profit orgs and such, but sometimes they're paying gigs), and it's been a whole lot of fun.
        rryan 11y ago
        Glad you like it :). We're working on the last mile stuff right now (updating the manual, website, etc.) -- it will definitely be out before new years!
SwellJoe 11y ago
So...um...Apple and Amazon have been shipping VBR files for years.
- swang 11y ago
  I am not sure if there's confusion or what but this is literally discussed in the article. So I am not sure what you're arguing exactly. The article discusses how the VBR files have been encoded with minimum bitrate constraints in the fear that someone will make a big deal out of it if it dips "too low"
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    VBR with a mininum bit rate != CBR. And, to be clear, the article is making a guess that Amazon or Apple are imposing a minimum bit rate to insure some lower bound on file size. I don't think there is really any solid evidence that Amazon or Apple are making decisions based on trying to make file sizes bigger to convince consumers they're getting "more value". I took exception to the premise, which is why I commented above. I don't believe Apple and Amazon are making decisions based on trying to increase file sizes, and I find it weird that the article suggest they are. I believe they are trying to maximize audio quality at smaller file sizes. Evidence seems to indicate that is what is happening. And, we've come full circle to the point of my initial comment. I don't think the argument he's making about maintaining large file sizes is backed by evidence or a particularly good understanding of consumer behavior/preference. I do think his guesses about the Netflix algorithm are interesting, but his digression into consumer behavior is less so, IMHO.
- rpgmaker 11y ago
  Amazon has been selling what appear to be insanely high v0 mp3s for years now. Of course, there's no way to know for sure. This is what they claim "Where possible, we encode our MP3 files using variable bit rates for optimal audio quality and file sizes, aiming at an average of 256 kilobits per second (kbps)" but the bit rates suggest insane v0 to me.

jonhohle 11y ago

The opposite has happened. Steve Jobs introduced H.264 as providing significantly higher quality at the same or lower bitrate. He shows an still from an existing MPEG-4 video and then a much higher resolution still from an H.264 encoded MPEG-4 video and claims that they require the same bitrate. He brings out Frank Casanova who goes on for 5 minutes or so about quality at lower bitrates. [0] IIRC, Apple also sold AAC as requiring lower bandwidth for the same quality, but I don't recall when that was. 0 - https://youtu.be/dPCNUExWR6I?t=3271 https://youtu.be/dPCNUExWR6I?t=3271

colanderman 11y ago
It is a bit disingenuous to compare video codec quality using stills. One can simply choose a key frame (= no temporal compression) to compare, and they'd likely be identical regardless of how well the codecs compress motion in non-key frames. (Not sure if the video clarifies this point since I cannot watch it right now.)

xorcist 11y ago

Quality of recorded music today has much more to do with mastering than bit rates and codecs. I certainly would prefer a 128 kbps version of a twenty year old mastering than a 192 kbps version of the modern remaster. That has led to a consumer revolt of sorts, for people who care about audio. That's not a large enough group to make a difference to the big record companies, but it is large enough that catering to them is a good business model in itself.

SwellJoe 11y ago
The two are unrelated issues. 128kbps mp3 files do sound pretty bad, especially on the high end and during very dynamic parts. It is audible to me, regardless of the quality of the original recording and its mastering. And, while we're talking, I'll point out that the loudness wars began roughly 20 years ago, so you may need to go back to an even earlier mastering to get the really good stuff. Certainly it was more pronounced through the late 90s and 00s, but I remember the first few records I bought that suffered badly from over-compression, and they were released around 1994-1996. The multi-band compression that has killed many great recordings began to see usage around that time as well, though it peaked much later (it was expensive to start with).

Brian-Puccio 11y ago

> Has that ever happened? I'm not sure if it has ever happened with bitrates in audio files, but the megapixel war comes to mind. 36 MP in a point-n-shoot? Must be better than the 12 MP in a Canon 5D DSLR since 36 is way more than 12.

tomphoolery 11y ago

It depends on the reason why you're buying the track. You can find all the great electronic music on iTunes, but the sound quality isn't as good as on Juno or Beatport. DJs shop at stores other than iTunes because the sound quality is a consistent 320 kbps (or WAV) and a track won't sound "bad" just because it's a slightly lower quality played in between two higher quality tracks. You can tell if you play them next to each other, on an expensive club sound system. Other than that, you probably can't.

S_A_P 11y ago
A club system is hardly something that I would call hi fidelity. Most PA systems are designed for injecting high spl music/audio in the frequency range of ~40-10khz.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  Club systems vary wildly. I usually provide my own gear, and it's quite high end (JBL SRX700 series subs, and PRX 625 mains), and is more accurate than most home stereos, while also being dangerously loud. But, I can't hear the difference between a ~200kbps mp3 and a FLAC through that system. I probably couldn't consistently hear the difference on my headphones (also high end) or my studio monitors (again, quite high end), either. That said, a 128kbps mp3 through a really loud system tends to sound harsh. It is definitely audible, even to untrained ears. But, anything above 192kbps, or so, is fine and any flaws that might be audible in an ideal listening environment are lost in the general noise of the club environment.