5 ms·

Easy (for a computer) to parse does not necessarily mean simpler for programmers to understand. I think Lisp's deeply nested parens are a good example of this p

Easy (for a computer) to parse does not necessarily mean simpler for programmers to understand. I think Lisp's deeply nested parens are a good example of this problem.

pvitz 11y ago
J is also quite easy to parse, but could be difficult to understand. (See e.g. http://sblom.github.io/openj-core/iojSent.htm#Parsing http://sblom.github.io/openj-core/iojSent.htm#Parsing)
- stepvhen 11y ago
  J is one of my favorites. The syntax is cryptic at first, but the lack of ambiguity makes programs easier to understand and easier to design in the long run.
  - Avshalom 11y ago
    I dunno, I think proper anonymous functions would have been a lot better than hooks and forks. Though I'm not sure if that falls under syntax or semantics for purposes of this discussion.
kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
Lisp has never been fully implemented. If M-expressions were in active use (and modernized over time) there wouldn't be so much parentheses hell.
- SpaceCadetJones 11y ago
  The only people who refer to it as parens hell seem to be non-lispers. As I understand it m-exps were never implemented because people don't really want them. I definitely prefer s-exps over them.
  - Avshalom 11y ago
    "the only people" implies that non-lispers is a category that is not equal to "almost everyone"
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - mokus 11y ago
    It seems plausible that the implied causality is backwards - perhaps it's not that people don't mind the parens because they use LISP, but rather that people use LISP because they don't mind the parens. Personally, I don't think I ever did mind them, but I'd be really surprised if that's not at least a moderately important filter on the set of people who become lispers.
  - munificent 11y ago
    > The only people who refer to it as parens hell seem to be non-lispers. Confirmation bias.
qwertyuiop924 11y ago
...Which is why we have WISP. And SRFI-49. And editors that can indent LISP code. All of these solve the problem rather nicely.
SpaceCadetJones 11y ago
I've been diving into Lisp over the past few months and I already find it just as easy to read and even easier to edit/navigate with a proper editor. Sometimes it gets hairy when reading mathematical operations, but that's it. Sure it's definitely possible to write hard to read code, but I don't think s-exps are necessarily more prone to this than your typical C style syntax.

Easy (for a computer) to parse does not necessarily mean simpler for programmers to understand. I think Lisp's deeply nested parens are a good example of this problem.

pvitz 11y ago

J is also quite easy to parse, but could be difficult to understand. (See e.g. http://sblom.github.io/openj-core/iojSent.htm#Parsing http://sblom.github.io/openj-core/iojSent.htm#Parsing)

stepvhen 11y ago
J is one of my favorites. The syntax is cryptic at first, but the lack of ambiguity makes programs easier to understand and easier to design in the long run.
- Avshalom 11y ago
  I dunno, I think proper anonymous functions would have been a lot better than hooks and forks. Though I'm not sure if that falls under syntax or semantics for purposes of this discussion.

kevin_thibedeau 11y ago

Lisp has never been fully implemented. If M-expressions were in active use (and modernized over time) there wouldn't be so much parentheses hell.

SpaceCadetJones 11y ago
The only people who refer to it as parens hell seem to be non-lispers. As I understand it m-exps were never implemented because people don't really want them. I definitely prefer s-exps over them.
- Avshalom 11y ago
  "the only people" implies that non-lispers is a category that is not equal to "almost everyone"
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- mokus 11y ago
  It seems plausible that the implied causality is backwards - perhaps it's not that people don't mind the parens because they use LISP, but rather that people use LISP because they don't mind the parens. Personally, I don't think I ever did mind them, but I'd be really surprised if that's not at least a moderately important filter on the set of people who become lispers.
- munificent 11y ago
  > The only people who refer to it as parens hell seem to be non-lispers. Confirmation bias.

qwertyuiop924 11y ago

...Which is why we have WISP. And SRFI-49. And editors that can indent LISP code. All of these solve the problem rather nicely.

SpaceCadetJones 11y ago

I've been diving into Lisp over the past few months and I already find it just as easy to read and even easier to edit/navigate with a proper editor. Sometimes it gets hairy when reading mathematical operations, but that's it. Sure it's definitely possible to write hard to read code, but I don't think s-exps are necessarily more prone to this than your typical C style syntax.