5 ms·

I'm beginning to think we should entirely abolish the punishment motivation in the criminal justice system. It negatively affects recidivism rates, creates a h

by s_q_b 11y ago

I'm beginning to think we should entirely abolish the punishment motivation in the criminal justice system. It negatively affects recidivism rates, creates a huge societal cost, and really serves no purpose other than vengeance for the victim. There are many excellent aspects of United States (and other British common law descendants) law, but they were created without the psychological understanding we now have of the factors that lead to crime. The current tripartite understanding of the reasons for prison sentences (punishment, deterrence, and removal from society) is simply not an accurate reflection of the reality of how to reduce criminal activity. Sure, there are some people that we need to just remove from society. However, these individuals who have truly incurably pathological tendencies toward illegal actions are relatively rare. The true purpose of the prison system needs to be reform. We need an evidence-based approach to crime prevention, not one based on human instinct, or the haphazard trial and error algorithm that developed our current legal system. Criminals need to be treated for mental illness, withdrawn from substance abuse, and most importantly given the socioeconomic tools they need to cope as law abiding citizens. Anything else is a waste of resources.

blfr 11y ago
Except we have no idea how to "reform" people. Even various pre-K programs return dismal results when tried at any significant scale. And these are impressionable kids, not hardened criminals. Perhaps not coincidentally, we also have a rather poor track record of helping mental patients. You could attribute some of it to mistreatment and maltreatment but largely we just don't know what to do.
- s_q_b 11y ago
  Absolutely. But the goal needs to be reform. We have some idea of how to approach it (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, mandatory real time drug and alcohol monitoring, psychotropics such as antipsychotics, employable skillsets, stable housing, stable income, anger management, etc.) We don't entirely know what to do yet, but I bet we could get a lot better at reform if that's where we focused our efforts, rather than attributing all crime to moral failing.
  - aaronem 11y ago
    That'd be a great idea if psychiatry had any better idea of what moves people to commit crimes, and how to stop them doing it again, than anyone else does. And even then, it'd be a terrible idea. You're proposing psychiatry become, not just an arm of the state, but an arm of the criminal justice system, with all the baggage that implies. What in the history of the field gives you to imagine it's mature enough, with responsible enough practitioners, to be given that much potential for abuse both well-meaning and otherwise?
- lmm 11y ago
  Community service results in massively lower recidivism rates than custodial sentences (even when the original crime was the same). We're not great at reforming people (though there are a few cheap targeted interventions we should be doing at every opportunity - namely ensuring mothers are well fed during the last few months of pregnancy, and avoiding lead exposure), but replacing most prison sentences with community service would most likely massively cut crime.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Plus even after they've served their time they still have an incredibly hard time finding work, housing, and anything else that would fall under the category of "required for life." And then we wonder why recidivism is so fucking high.
necessity 11y ago
Has it never occurred to you (the obvious) that punishment is one of the things (if not the most important one) that keeps people from committing crimes? It's a matter of disincentive. Not only that, it's part of the reform, since it's a form of reprehension. I can't understand how you can't see what is basically common sense.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Except the punishments do not make the victim whole again, they cost society a shitload of money, and oftentimes the offenders have no idea what the consequences actually are. So, what is this for? I'm not advocating no consequences for anything, but I think a financial penalty would be far more effective and might have a chance at actually giving the victim something besides some nebulous feeling of satisfaction, while saving us money and not costing us productive members of society who had a moment of lapsed judgement. I've worked with a lot of ex cons. Sure you have some that are hard core criminals, but the vast, vast majority are just people who did something stupid, know it, regret it, and are branded for life for it. It sucks.
- cmiles74 11y ago
  While the idea sounds straightforward, I don't believe that it's as simple as "punishment deters crime". IMHO, the deterrent effect of imprisonment is negligible; it's primary effect is to prevent those who commit crimes from committing more in the public arena by locking them up. http://primary.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/2007/01/the_irrational_18yearold_criminal.html http://primary.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_scienc...

by s_q_b 11y ago

blfr 11y ago

Except we have no idea how to "reform" people. Even various pre-K programs return dismal results when tried at any significant scale. And these are impressionable kids, not hardened criminals. Perhaps not coincidentally, we also have a rather poor track record of helping mental patients. You could attribute some of it to mistreatment and maltreatment but largely we just don't know what to do.

s_q_b 11y ago
Absolutely. But the goal needs to be reform. We have some idea of how to approach it (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, mandatory real time drug and alcohol monitoring, psychotropics such as antipsychotics, employable skillsets, stable housing, stable income, anger management, etc.) We don't entirely know what to do yet, but I bet we could get a lot better at reform if that's where we focused our efforts, rather than attributing all crime to moral failing.
- aaronem 11y ago
  That'd be a great idea if psychiatry had any better idea of what moves people to commit crimes, and how to stop them doing it again, than anyone else does. And even then, it'd be a terrible idea. You're proposing psychiatry become, not just an arm of the state, but an arm of the criminal justice system, with all the baggage that implies. What in the history of the field gives you to imagine it's mature enough, with responsible enough practitioners, to be given that much potential for abuse both well-meaning and otherwise?
lmm 11y ago
Community service results in massively lower recidivism rates than custodial sentences (even when the original crime was the same). We're not great at reforming people (though there are a few cheap targeted interventions we should be doing at every opportunity - namely ensuring mothers are well fed during the last few months of pregnancy, and avoiding lead exposure), but replacing most prison sentences with community service would most likely massively cut crime.
FussyZeus 11y ago
Plus even after they've served their time they still have an incredibly hard time finding work, housing, and anything else that would fall under the category of "required for life." And then we wonder why recidivism is so fucking high.

necessity 11y ago

Has it never occurred to you (the obvious) that punishment is one of the things (if not the most important one) that keeps people from committing crimes? It's a matter of disincentive. Not only that, it's part of the reform, since it's a form of reprehension. I can't understand how you can't see what is basically common sense.

FussyZeus 11y ago
Except the punishments do not make the victim whole again, they cost society a shitload of money, and oftentimes the offenders have no idea what the consequences actually are. So, what is this for? I'm not advocating no consequences for anything, but I think a financial penalty would be far more effective and might have a chance at actually giving the victim something besides some nebulous feeling of satisfaction, while saving us money and not costing us productive members of society who had a moment of lapsed judgement. I've worked with a lot of ex cons. Sure you have some that are hard core criminals, but the vast, vast majority are just people who did something stupid, know it, regret it, and are branded for life for it. It sucks.
cmiles74 11y ago
While the idea sounds straightforward, I don't believe that it's as simple as "punishment deters crime". IMHO, the deterrent effect of imprisonment is negligible; it's primary effect is to prevent those who commit crimes from committing more in the public arena by locking them up. http://primary.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/2007/01/the_irrational_18yearold_criminal.html http://primary.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_scienc...