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Yes, if I am running a scam on US users, using US services to do so, and hiring US employees to run the scam, then I am operating in the US, even if I never set

Yes, if I am running a scam on US users, using US services to do so, and hiring US employees to run the scam, then I am operating in the US, even if I never set foot there. You can argue any kind of racketeering is immune to foreign prosecution if you argue against Dotcom's extradition, and those arguments are no more valid.

michaelmrose 11y ago
You shouldn't be subject to US law as a non us citizen regardless or would you like US citizens hauled off to saudi arabia to answer decency charges?
- VanillaLime 11y ago
  Indecency isn't a crime in the US, so you couldn't get extradited for it. If you had committed a crime in Saudi Arabia that is also illegal in the US and the US courts have ruled that the extradition is legal, I don't see what's wrong with being extradited.
  - dsfyu404ed 11y ago
    Copyright infringement isn't a crime in NZ...
    - chrisbennet 11y ago
      Except that it is (someone posted a link to the law above).
    - DanBC 11y ago
      It is if you do it as part of a business. Downloading a movie isn't a crime (but is illegal), but burning it to dvd and selling it turns it into a crime.
      - deftnerd 11y ago
        OK, let's shift to another scenario then. It's illegal in the US to make and distribute adult films without the proper permits and paperwork and health checks. Let's say someone made a website that had Saudi girls, now living in the US, make adult films (without the proper permitting and everything so they were violating a US law as well) and advertised those films in Saudi Arabia. And let's say there are Saudi customers. To speed things up, maybe they had a CDN server in Saudi Arabia. When the authorities in Saudi Arabia discover this and charge the film makers, would the US grant extradition? * The film makers / business operators in this scenario would be 100% American. * The product of their creation and the service itself wouldn't be illegal in the US. What was illegal was some business decisions they made. * Their CDN helped facilitate optimal data transmission but was not required for business operations * The Saudi court in this scenario wishes to charge them for the service itself and the product created Similarly, * Kim is not an american citizen and his company wasn't American * His business was legal in the country it was incorporated in, although he arguably made some business decisions that were not entirely above board * He had leased equipment in the US to help serve people in that geographic region * The US wishes to jail him for the actual operation of the service Would the US extradite the US citizen to Saudi Arabia for punishment? If not, why should NZ extradite Kim to the US? *edit - Somehow didn't see that michaelmrose made this argument too in this exact same thread
        DanBC 11y ago
        In general something has to be a crime in both countries for an extradition to happen. This has meant that the US has introduced extra sex crime law so that Americans who travel overseas to take advantages of different age of consent laws can be tried as if they had committed the crime in the US.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      They also don't have Google in New Zealand.
      - unprepare 11y ago
        am i missing something at google.co.nz?
  - madaxe_again 11y ago
    Is murder a crime in the US? Or only if you're black? I ask as there are numerous cases of accused murder where the US has refused extradition.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    If you're a gay man you face much more serious consequences from that extradition.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Or US 'contractors' to Iraq. The US has many citizens that rightly should stand trial for crimes a whole lot more serious than facilitating copyright violation, and none ever will. Reciprocity in situations like these would be very much appreciated and the US is very very reluctant to let any of its citizens be extradited. It happens, but the frequency is dis-proportional to the point of being comical.
  - rtpg 11y ago
    Are there any stats about this? Military contractors have a bit of a special situation ( not to say its valid...), but if I'm wanted for murder in France I'm pretty sure I'll be put on the first plane out if I were in Virginia
    - DanBC 11y ago
      One area of unbalance: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 > A critical test set out in the treaty is that the British request must include "such information as would provide a reasonable basis to believe that the person sought committed the offence for which extradition is requested." > This requirement does not apply to requests submitted by the US to the UK.
    - madaxe_again 11y ago
      Amanda Knox. You made her a celebrity. Us tried hard to prevent her being tried.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - tdyen 11y ago
    What about What about the What about the ex CEO of Union Carbide who still has a warrant out for his arrest in India for the Bhopal incident. Basically this is a power game. If your little the US system screws you. If your big like China and ripping off Nike sneakers you can thumb your nose at the US legal system.
- GauntletWizard 11y ago
  Would you care to point out some US companies that have hosted servers and hired employees in Saudi Arabia where those servers and employees were flaunting Saudi law? Further, New Zealand made their own choice to extradite him. They could have refused, they instead chose to. The alternative might have been an international incident, but they decided to aid the US and turn him over. The US is not so all-powerful that it can compel governments to act against their own best interest, only powerful enough to align interests, by hook or crook.
  - djsumdog 11y ago
    > The US is not so all-powerful that it can compel governments to act against their own best interest, only powerful enough to align interests, by hook or crook. What world do you live in? The United States often compels governments to act against their own interests. The 1973 US backed coup leading to the death of 11,000 civilians. The Iranian-Contras. The School of the Americas, which literally trained terrorists in South America, Iraq! Thirty years from now, declassified information will show the US caused the rebellion in Libya and that the US directly funded ISIS. Granted New Zealand is a Commonwealth State and it'd be much more difficult to go to war with a developed English speaking nation, but they are still under the thumb of the US/UK empire. They ruled the spying on Kim Dotcom was illegal, then changed the laws to make it retroactively legal...and also allow the GCHB to spy on anyone they want.
    - flyryan 11y ago
      I wish I could base my arguments on things that are going to happen 30 years from now.
    - gcb0 11y ago
      for NZ, the USA based companies signed a deal to film several multi million dollars movies there on the same week the NZ feds agreed to press charges and arrest Kim Dotcom. including the hobbit, which also donated a renovated international airport to the country (hobbit themed no less) if you want to think the US industry most interested in the copyright law there moving all that money at the right time is just a coincidence, suit yourself.

michaelmrose 11y ago

You shouldn't be subject to US law as a non us citizen regardless or would you like US citizens hauled off to saudi arabia to answer decency charges?

VanillaLime 11y ago
Indecency isn't a crime in the US, so you couldn't get extradited for it. If you had committed a crime in Saudi Arabia that is also illegal in the US and the US courts have ruled that the extradition is legal, I don't see what's wrong with being extradited.
- dsfyu404ed 11y ago
  Copyright infringement isn't a crime in NZ...
  - chrisbennet 11y ago
    Except that it is (someone posted a link to the law above).
  - DanBC 11y ago
    It is if you do it as part of a business. Downloading a movie isn't a crime (but is illegal), but burning it to dvd and selling it turns it into a crime.
    - deftnerd 11y ago
      OK, let's shift to another scenario then. It's illegal in the US to make and distribute adult films without the proper permits and paperwork and health checks. Let's say someone made a website that had Saudi girls, now living in the US, make adult films (without the proper permitting and everything so they were violating a US law as well) and advertised those films in Saudi Arabia. And let's say there are Saudi customers. To speed things up, maybe they had a CDN server in Saudi Arabia. When the authorities in Saudi Arabia discover this and charge the film makers, would the US grant extradition? * The film makers / business operators in this scenario would be 100% American. * The product of their creation and the service itself wouldn't be illegal in the US. What was illegal was some business decisions they made. * Their CDN helped facilitate optimal data transmission but was not required for business operations * The Saudi court in this scenario wishes to charge them for the service itself and the product created Similarly, * Kim is not an american citizen and his company wasn't American * His business was legal in the country it was incorporated in, although he arguably made some business decisions that were not entirely above board * He had leased equipment in the US to help serve people in that geographic region * The US wishes to jail him for the actual operation of the service Would the US extradite the US citizen to Saudi Arabia for punishment? If not, why should NZ extradite Kim to the US? *edit - Somehow didn't see that michaelmrose made this argument too in this exact same thread
      - DanBC 11y ago
        In general something has to be a crime in both countries for an extradition to happen. This has meant that the US has introduced extra sex crime law so that Americans who travel overseas to take advantages of different age of consent laws can be tried as if they had committed the crime in the US.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    They also don't have Google in New Zealand.
    - unprepare 11y ago
      am i missing something at google.co.nz?
- madaxe_again 11y ago
  Is murder a crime in the US? Or only if you're black? I ask as there are numerous cases of accused murder where the US has refused extradition.
- DanBC 11y ago
  If you're a gay man you face much more serious consequences from that extradition.
jacquesm 11y ago
Or US 'contractors' to Iraq. The US has many citizens that rightly should stand trial for crimes a whole lot more serious than facilitating copyright violation, and none ever will. Reciprocity in situations like these would be very much appreciated and the US is very very reluctant to let any of its citizens be extradited. It happens, but the frequency is dis-proportional to the point of being comical.
- rtpg 11y ago
  Are there any stats about this? Military contractors have a bit of a special situation ( not to say its valid...), but if I'm wanted for murder in France I'm pretty sure I'll be put on the first plane out if I were in Virginia
  - DanBC 11y ago
    One area of unbalance: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 > A critical test set out in the treaty is that the British request must include "such information as would provide a reasonable basis to believe that the person sought committed the offence for which extradition is requested." > This requirement does not apply to requests submitted by the US to the UK.
  - madaxe_again 11y ago
    Amanda Knox. You made her a celebrity. Us tried hard to prevent her being tried.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- tdyen 11y ago
  What about What about the What about the ex CEO of Union Carbide who still has a warrant out for his arrest in India for the Bhopal incident. Basically this is a power game. If your little the US system screws you. If your big like China and ripping off Nike sneakers you can thumb your nose at the US legal system.
GauntletWizard 11y ago
Would you care to point out some US companies that have hosted servers and hired employees in Saudi Arabia where those servers and employees were flaunting Saudi law? Further, New Zealand made their own choice to extradite him. They could have refused, they instead chose to. The alternative might have been an international incident, but they decided to aid the US and turn him over. The US is not so all-powerful that it can compel governments to act against their own best interest, only powerful enough to align interests, by hook or crook.
- djsumdog 11y ago
  > The US is not so all-powerful that it can compel governments to act against their own best interest, only powerful enough to align interests, by hook or crook. What world do you live in? The United States often compels governments to act against their own interests. The 1973 US backed coup leading to the death of 11,000 civilians. The Iranian-Contras. The School of the Americas, which literally trained terrorists in South America, Iraq! Thirty years from now, declassified information will show the US caused the rebellion in Libya and that the US directly funded ISIS. Granted New Zealand is a Commonwealth State and it'd be much more difficult to go to war with a developed English speaking nation, but they are still under the thumb of the US/UK empire. They ruled the spying on Kim Dotcom was illegal, then changed the laws to make it retroactively legal...and also allow the GCHB to spy on anyone they want.
  - flyryan 11y ago
    I wish I could base my arguments on things that are going to happen 30 years from now.
  - gcb0 11y ago
    for NZ, the USA based companies signed a deal to film several multi million dollars movies there on the same week the NZ feds agreed to press charges and arrest Kim Dotcom. including the hobbit, which also donated a renovated international airport to the country (hobbit themed no less) if you want to think the US industry most interested in the copyright law there moving all that money at the right time is just a coincidence, suit yourself.