6 ms·

Now, if only we could get rid of the DRM infesting the games industry like they did with music. It's seriously ridiculous that you can't get a refund for or res

by habitue 11y ago

Now, if only we could get rid of the DRM infesting the games industry like they did with music. It's seriously ridiculous that you can't get a refund for or resell downloaded games. The plastic disk doesn't fundamentally change anything, and they know it, otherwise they'd charge less for digital versions.

eropple 11y ago
You can get a refund for games sold on Steam.
- striking 11y ago
  (as long as you've only played <2h of a game, or the game is fraudulent)
  - eropple 11y ago
    Sure, but that's pretty fair. If you've played two hours of a game, you know if it sucks or not.
    - swang 11y ago
      Until game companies decide to "game" their games by making the first two hours work perfectly, then have everything break apart after that.
      - eropple 11y ago
        There has to be a line somewhere. Otherwise you endorse rampant silliness like "oh, I didn't like the artistic decisions involved in the end of Mass Effect 3 after I played thirty hours of it, I want my money back." Two hours of play is already a longer return period than most physical game retailers have offered.
- douche 11y ago
  That is a relatively recent development though - I think only about a year. I hope it is being used to incentivize publishers to fix their shit before release, rather than dumping buggy, broken, incomplete trash on their captive pre-orders. Most of my Steam orders are sale items, so my calculus is that it really only has to give me as much enjoyment as the equally costly big coffee at Starbucks for it to be worthwhile, and that's a low bar.
chris11 11y ago
Steam has a somewhat reasonable refund policy: http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/ http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/ . And most online purchases are made with credit cards, and those usually have strong consumer protections. You could always do a chargeback if the game launch was really bad (SimCity, Dayz). Also, a lot of credit cards have return polices where you can get refunds for any reason within 60 days of purchase.
- Cpoll 11y ago
  There are numerous horror stories about people issuing a charge-back on a Steam purchase and having Steam respond by permanently disabling their account (invariably filled with $3000 worth of games).
  - kevingadd 11y ago
    Until quite recently this was official Valve policy, even if the game was defective. I had to explain the policy to American Express to get them to threaten Valve so I could get a refund on a game that had broken DRM (Securom).
- voltagex_ 11y ago
  I know the US & Canada don't have a lot of consumer protections but coming from Australia this looks like a terrible policy - https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees...
Houshalter 11y ago
They can't charge less for the digital version because of gamestop. Gamestop won't carry games where the digital version is cheaper. There might also be similar arrangements with the console makers themselves, not wanting to encourage the PC market. Games made only for PC are cheaper and have better sales. As for reselling games, that would seriously hurt developers. A single game could be resold 100s of times, but only the first sale goes to the developer, and everyone else in the chain plays for free.
- jonknee 11y ago
  > As for reselling games, that would seriously hurt developers. A single game could be resold 100s of times, but only the first sale goes to the developer, and everyone else in the chain plays for free. Video games have been resold since video games were invented and there still continue to be new titles.
  - Houshalter 11y ago
    And it has always hurt developers. Games could be cheaper or have larger budgets without Gamestop taking such a huge cut. The worrying thing about digital is it could be vastly easier to trade used games. There is no worrying about scratched discs, and you don't get pennies on the dollar for the trade. You could just play used games endlessly without ever spending more than an initial investment.
    - rangibaby 11y ago
      They are already cheap and have AAA games have budgets comparable to mid-tier Hollywood movies. Not being able to sell something you bought seems strange to me.
      - Houshalter 11y ago
        I said cheaper and larger. And that goes especially for smaller games. PC indie games would probably hurt the worst from this. Since I imagine there are far more used copies floating around than people actually playing them. When supply is greater than demand, the price goes towards zero. It's not really strange, it's been this way for years. When have you ever been able to sell software you downloaded? Neither Apple or Google let you sell used apps, steam has never allowed used game sales, etc. And it makes way more sense this way. You are not buying a physical object that took labor and resources to produce. A physical object that would go to waste otherwise. You are buying a bunch of bits which can be copied endlessly. There's no depreciation over time, no downside to buying used over new. No personal attachment to a specific object when you can just download it again when you want to play it. No middlemen to take a cut out of the trade so that you can just buy and sell it at exactly the same price.
vinkelhake 11y ago
If I can be the devil's advocate a for a bit... I don't think it's entirely ridiculous that you can't resell an item that never degrades. If this was possible, it would be a huge blow to publishers. Imagine a new game being released on PS4 for $60. A good number of people buy the game at release, play it through and then put it up on a marketplace at a lower price. At this time, there is zero incentive for a buyer to get it from PlayStation store since he will get the exact same product in either case. I say this as a gamer who exclusively buys digital downloads these days. Would I like to be able to resell downloaded games? Yes. I just don't think it's realistic.
- cloverich 11y ago
  > I don't think it's entirely ridiculous that you can't resell an item that never degrades. Thats an argument for protectionism, but not for consumer benefit. In fact it feels like the opposite -- using IP law to force consumers to pay more for the exact same product that could be bought "used."
- megablast 11y ago
  This is the situation now. You think the current situation is bad?
- habitue 11y ago
  The same arguments could be made for digital music, yet somehow they still make it work without DRM
lectrick 11y ago
http://www.gog.com/ http://www.gog.com/

by habitue 11y ago

eropple 11y ago

You can get a refund for games sold on Steam.

striking 11y ago
(as long as you've only played <2h of a game, or the game is fraudulent)
- eropple 11y ago
  Sure, but that's pretty fair. If you've played two hours of a game, you know if it sucks or not.
  - swang 11y ago
    Until game companies decide to "game" their games by making the first two hours work perfectly, then have everything break apart after that.
    - eropple 11y ago
      There has to be a line somewhere. Otherwise you endorse rampant silliness like "oh, I didn't like the artistic decisions involved in the end of Mass Effect 3 after I played thirty hours of it, I want my money back." Two hours of play is already a longer return period than most physical game retailers have offered.
douche 11y ago
That is a relatively recent development though - I think only about a year. I hope it is being used to incentivize publishers to fix their shit before release, rather than dumping buggy, broken, incomplete trash on their captive pre-orders. Most of my Steam orders are sale items, so my calculus is that it really only has to give me as much enjoyment as the equally costly big coffee at Starbucks for it to be worthwhile, and that's a low bar.

chris11 11y ago

Steam has a somewhat reasonable refund policy: http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/ http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/ . And most online purchases are made with credit cards, and those usually have strong consumer protections. You could always do a chargeback if the game launch was really bad (SimCity, Dayz). Also, a lot of credit cards have return polices where you can get refunds for any reason within 60 days of purchase.

Cpoll 11y ago
There are numerous horror stories about people issuing a charge-back on a Steam purchase and having Steam respond by permanently disabling their account (invariably filled with $3000 worth of games).
- kevingadd 11y ago
  Until quite recently this was official Valve policy, even if the game was defective. I had to explain the policy to American Express to get them to threaten Valve so I could get a refund on a game that had broken DRM (Securom).
voltagex_ 11y ago
I know the US & Canada don't have a lot of consumer protections but coming from Australia this looks like a terrible policy - https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees...

Houshalter 11y ago

They can't charge less for the digital version because of gamestop. Gamestop won't carry games where the digital version is cheaper. There might also be similar arrangements with the console makers themselves, not wanting to encourage the PC market. Games made only for PC are cheaper and have better sales. As for reselling games, that would seriously hurt developers. A single game could be resold 100s of times, but only the first sale goes to the developer, and everyone else in the chain plays for free.

jonknee 11y ago
> As for reselling games, that would seriously hurt developers. A single game could be resold 100s of times, but only the first sale goes to the developer, and everyone else in the chain plays for free. Video games have been resold since video games were invented and there still continue to be new titles.
- Houshalter 11y ago
  And it has always hurt developers. Games could be cheaper or have larger budgets without Gamestop taking such a huge cut. The worrying thing about digital is it could be vastly easier to trade used games. There is no worrying about scratched discs, and you don't get pennies on the dollar for the trade. You could just play used games endlessly without ever spending more than an initial investment.
  - rangibaby 11y ago
    They are already cheap and have AAA games have budgets comparable to mid-tier Hollywood movies. Not being able to sell something you bought seems strange to me.
    - Houshalter 11y ago
      I said cheaper and larger. And that goes especially for smaller games. PC indie games would probably hurt the worst from this. Since I imagine there are far more used copies floating around than people actually playing them. When supply is greater than demand, the price goes towards zero. It's not really strange, it's been this way for years. When have you ever been able to sell software you downloaded? Neither Apple or Google let you sell used apps, steam has never allowed used game sales, etc. And it makes way more sense this way. You are not buying a physical object that took labor and resources to produce. A physical object that would go to waste otherwise. You are buying a bunch of bits which can be copied endlessly. There's no depreciation over time, no downside to buying used over new. No personal attachment to a specific object when you can just download it again when you want to play it. No middlemen to take a cut out of the trade so that you can just buy and sell it at exactly the same price.

vinkelhake 11y ago

If I can be the devil's advocate a for a bit... I don't think it's entirely ridiculous that you can't resell an item that never degrades. If this was possible, it would be a huge blow to publishers. Imagine a new game being released on PS4 for $60. A good number of people buy the game at release, play it through and then put it up on a marketplace at a lower price. At this time, there is zero incentive for a buyer to get it from PlayStation store since he will get the exact same product in either case. I say this as a gamer who exclusively buys digital downloads these days. Would I like to be able to resell downloaded games? Yes. I just don't think it's realistic.

cloverich 11y ago
> I don't think it's entirely ridiculous that you can't resell an item that never degrades. Thats an argument for protectionism, but not for consumer benefit. In fact it feels like the opposite -- using IP law to force consumers to pay more for the exact same product that could be bought "used."
megablast 11y ago
This is the situation now. You think the current situation is bad?
habitue 11y ago
The same arguments could be made for digital music, yet somehow they still make it work without DRM

lectrick 11y ago

http://www.gog.com/ http://www.gog.com/