6 ms·

:) I think the biggest problem in the industry is that many of the "young people" (I'm still young, dammit!) don't really want to learn or be mentored. Seems

by modoc 17y ago

:) I think the biggest problem in the industry is that many of the "young people" (I'm still young, dammit!) don't really want to learn or be mentored. Seems like there's a slew of folks in the junior to mid-level developer arena who got into CS because it was going to make them a lot of money, not because they love to code. I love it when I'm working with people who love to tinker with new libraries and APIs, who are working on something neat in their spare time, etc... They make much better developers than folks with a CS degree who do what's assigned to them from 9-5 and that's it. I'm not saying you have to work a ton, but just be interested in the whole tech universe:)

meta 17y ago
As best as possible, I think a company should screen for that in the Interviews. (given that Interviews are sometimes a effectiveness gamble, I realize that it can be difficult to screen for that). I usually watch to see if they light up and get into conversations when I ask questions in the Interview related to our tech. If they don't get that expression and interest (hard to qualify but I think most people know what I am talking about) than that is a lot of hire points lost. If you spend an hour talking computers and they never 'light up', I feel, they are probably not the right fit.
jerf 17y ago
I blame the myth that young hackers are somehow strangely more knowledgeable than their elders because of the putatively ever-changing nature of technology. I've always been suspicious of this self-serving narrative (in what other engineering field is this true?), but as I approach what passes for Old Fartness in this industry (30) now I know it's bullshit. All the twenty-year-old whizzes I know are experts at taking something like Ruby on Rails, trading in the quality of the underlying framework to put together a hack-job very quickly, and then promptly getting themselves stuck in a morass that they can't get out of because they don't even understand why they are in a morass. Hand these people something with a lot of technical assets they can borrow against and yeah, they can toss something together fast, but that's hardly "better" then what I can do now, which is actually produce technical value. (Mind you, I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. There's a time and a place for that. What is a bad thing is that the developer won't understand the tradeoffs they just made, and probably didn't make the tradeoff after a sober and careful balancing of the costs and benefits, but did it because it's all they know.) Anyhow, my point is that thanks to that mythology, a lot of younger people don't think they can be mentored by the old farts they think know nothing in this rapidly changing technical environments. The old farts (at least the ones who have ten years of experience and not one year of experience ten times) have learned that frankly, the tech world isn't changing that fast (different languages, different APIs, pretty much the same messes). There's plenty of mentoring to be done, but you gotta accept that the mentors are going to tell you some things that may shattered your treasured conceptions of the programming world....
- alexgartrell 17y ago
  Though I agree that there's a lot of value in what more experienced people have to say and that people my age should seek out knowledge from you, there are a couple things that are also important to remember. Many of us "20-year-old whizzes" don't do what you describe at all. In fact, as a Systems programmer, it's not incredibly likely that you know 'better than me' what the implications of what you're doing are at an Operating System level. I know 20-year-olds who have contributed source to Linux, Chrome, Firefox, and a number of other Open Source projects. Folks who have worked in industry for 2-4 summers in a row already. 20-year-olds who have gone to Silicon Valley and done the startup thing. (I can go on with this BS forever) But all that 20-year-old ego stuff aside, it's also important to remember that this is a field that is routinely dominated by disruptive thoughts, ideas, and personalities. All of your experience becomes a hindrance when you start to follow your old steps to the "right solution" every time. For that reason, it's also important that you look to the "20-something whizzes" for insights and ideas that may surprise you and that you actually consider what they say.
  - paulbaumgart 17y ago
    Clearly, we need a better way to judge insights than the age of the person who has them.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    You bring up some interesting points, but I must disagree with what you seem to be implying. While it is true that there are many 20 year olds with very impressive tech resumes, many more impressive than mine (I went in the Army and did some other things before entering the tech industry, so I came in older than average). But they are the exception, not the rule. When I interview young programmers, most come as the post described with a CS degree and I hope to work 9-5 having done little-to-no programming that was required. At least from what I see in interviews, those are more common than the impressive resumes. Next is, All of your experience becomes a hindrance when you start to follow your old steps to the "right solution" every time. This can be true in some cases, but again I think those are the exception, not the rule. Remember that most mid-career people, especially the successful ones and especially in technology, can be quite adaptable. Also, remember that most disruptive thoughts are older ideas that are just now coming into their own. Lisp has been around for a very long time, but it is starting to take off now (at least more so than it was in the past). Thin clients are a very cyclic idea that once were the norm in an extreme with dumb terminals to mainframes, then gave way to desktops, then were talked about without much success, and now are seeing some success in netbooks/smartphones/etc. Most of the time the more experienced and seasoned person can adapt and then leverage their experience with similar things even in a new, disruptive idea.
hello_moto 17y ago
There's also a bunch of folks in that group (junior to mid-level) who would prefer to only write code and not to do the rest: testing, documenting/commenting, and analyzing... as if their code is flawless...

by modoc 17y ago

meta 17y ago

As best as possible, I think a company should screen for that in the Interviews. (given that Interviews are sometimes a effectiveness gamble, I realize that it can be difficult to screen for that). I usually watch to see if they light up and get into conversations when I ask questions in the Interview related to our tech. If they don't get that expression and interest (hard to qualify but I think most people know what I am talking about) than that is a lot of hire points lost. If you spend an hour talking computers and they never 'light up', I feel, they are probably not the right fit.

jerf 17y ago

I blame the myth that young hackers are somehow strangely more knowledgeable than their elders because of the putatively ever-changing nature of technology. I've always been suspicious of this self-serving narrative (in what other engineering field is this true?), but as I approach what passes for Old Fartness in this industry (30) now I know it's bullshit. All the twenty-year-old whizzes I know are experts at taking something like Ruby on Rails, trading in the quality of the underlying framework to put together a hack-job very quickly, and then promptly getting themselves stuck in a morass that they can't get out of because they don't even understand why they are in a morass. Hand these people something with a lot of technical assets they can borrow against and yeah, they can toss something together fast, but that's hardly "better" then what I can do now, which is actually produce technical value. (Mind you, I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. There's a time and a place for that. What is a bad thing is that the developer won't understand the tradeoffs they just made, and probably didn't make the tradeoff after a sober and careful balancing of the costs and benefits, but did it because it's all they know.) Anyhow, my point is that thanks to that mythology, a lot of younger people don't think they can be mentored by the old farts they think know nothing in this rapidly changing technical environments. The old farts (at least the ones who have ten years of experience and not one year of experience ten times) have learned that frankly, the tech world isn't changing that fast (different languages, different APIs, pretty much the same messes). There's plenty of mentoring to be done, but you gotta accept that the mentors are going to tell you some things that may shattered your treasured conceptions of the programming world....

alexgartrell 17y ago
Though I agree that there's a lot of value in what more experienced people have to say and that people my age should seek out knowledge from you, there are a couple things that are also important to remember. Many of us "20-year-old whizzes" don't do what you describe at all. In fact, as a Systems programmer, it's not incredibly likely that you know 'better than me' what the implications of what you're doing are at an Operating System level. I know 20-year-olds who have contributed source to Linux, Chrome, Firefox, and a number of other Open Source projects. Folks who have worked in industry for 2-4 summers in a row already. 20-year-olds who have gone to Silicon Valley and done the startup thing. (I can go on with this BS forever) But all that 20-year-old ego stuff aside, it's also important to remember that this is a field that is routinely dominated by disruptive thoughts, ideas, and personalities. All of your experience becomes a hindrance when you start to follow your old steps to the "right solution" every time. For that reason, it's also important that you look to the "20-something whizzes" for insights and ideas that may surprise you and that you actually consider what they say.
- paulbaumgart 17y ago
  Clearly, we need a better way to judge insights than the age of the person who has them.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  You bring up some interesting points, but I must disagree with what you seem to be implying. While it is true that there are many 20 year olds with very impressive tech resumes, many more impressive than mine (I went in the Army and did some other things before entering the tech industry, so I came in older than average). But they are the exception, not the rule. When I interview young programmers, most come as the post described with a CS degree and I hope to work 9-5 having done little-to-no programming that was required. At least from what I see in interviews, those are more common than the impressive resumes. Next is, All of your experience becomes a hindrance when you start to follow your old steps to the "right solution" every time. This can be true in some cases, but again I think those are the exception, not the rule. Remember that most mid-career people, especially the successful ones and especially in technology, can be quite adaptable. Also, remember that most disruptive thoughts are older ideas that are just now coming into their own. Lisp has been around for a very long time, but it is starting to take off now (at least more so than it was in the past). Thin clients are a very cyclic idea that once were the norm in an extreme with dumb terminals to mainframes, then gave way to desktops, then were talked about without much success, and now are seeing some success in netbooks/smartphones/etc. Most of the time the more experienced and seasoned person can adapt and then leverage their experience with similar things even in a new, disruptive idea.

hello_moto 17y ago

There's also a bunch of folks in that group (junior to mid-level) who would prefer to only write code and not to do the rest: testing, documenting/commenting, and analyzing... as if their code is flawless...