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What the hell are you even talking about? How is the police force battling _illegal_ drug traffickers the bad guys here?

by scient 11y ago

dev1n 11y ago
it's common knowledge that legalizing drugs would destroy incomes for gangs, who as we all know are the root of violent crimes. If the gangs don't exist, the violence drops.
- at-fates-hands 11y ago
  Wow - that's quite a leap. Legalize drugs, then the Cartels just say, "Oh, you guys legalized all the drugs were smuggling into your country? I guess we better quit our gang get day jobs now." Just like we saw when marijuana was legalized here, the cartels simply diversified and started smuggling more heroin, coke and meth and less marijuana. Did their violence subside? Nope. Did it really have a huge impact on their business? Hardly.
  - dasil003 11y ago
    The idea is to legalize and control all drugs. Where will the cartels get their money from?
    - DanBC 11y ago
      Some drugs are still going to be cheaper from the illegal market. Criminal gangs don't pay tax; sometimes use slave labour; don't have the best quality control; etc. See also the amount of counterfeit and smuggled cigarettes in the UK.
      - simonh 11y ago
        True but the effect is likely to be fairly small. It's probably better to compare legalization of most drugs to the end of prohibition. That saw a collapse in crime and incarceration rates back towards (although admittedly not all the way down to) pre-prohibition levels which only picked up again with the war on drugs. If you don't trust that comparison, how about looking at the actual real world effects seen recently in Western countries such as Holland and Portugal that have tried this.
        DanBC 11y ago
        Yes, but it's still a problem. UK customs agents seize about 1m cigarettes per day. There are about 10m smokers in the UK, so if they smoke about 20 a day that's about 200m cigarettes per day. 1m isn't much compared to that. But it's still there. (But I do strongly support legalisation of drugs. I just think there's some stuff to be learnt from UK)
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        The black market is a natural limit on the "effectiveness" of sales taxes. High enough taxes constitute de facto prohibition, especially for poorer segments of the market. Thus a high enough tax can't really be justified by the goals of collecting funds or discouraging vice. The criminal activity is the point; how else could they justify employing so many more police than a rational system of laws would require?
  - lmm 11y ago
    So wait, were the cartels sitting around ignoring heroin/coke/meth as long as marijuana was illegal? That makes no sense. Not every cartel will go out of business immediately, but if you cut off a big source of illegal funds it absolutely will mean less illegal activity.
    - at-fates-hands 11y ago
      They weren't, but like all big corporations, they diversified their product lines: - Losing marijuana business, Mexican cartels push heroin and meth -https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/losing-marijuana-business-mexican-cartels-push-heroin-and-meth/2015/01/11/91fe44ce-8532-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/losing-mar... - Marijuana Legalization Sparks Heroin, Meth Trade Increase with Mexican Cartels - https://www.thefix.com/content/marijuana-legalization-sparks-heroin-meth-trade-increase-mexican-cartels https://www.thefix.com/content/marijuana-legalization-sparks... - Drug Cartels Turning to Meth, Heroin After Pot Legalization in U.S. - http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/05/19/drug-cartels-turning-meth-heroin-after-pot-legalization-us http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/05/19/drug-cartels-turning-m... - Have Changing Marijuana Laws Led to an Increase in Heroin & Meth Smuggling? - http://lighthouserecoveryinstitute.com/have-changing-marijuana-laws-led-to-an-increase-in-heroin-meth-smuggling/ http://lighthouserecoveryinstitute.com/have-changing-marijua... Also, marijuana was never much money for the cartels, the real money has always been in heroin and meth. It's much cheaper to produce and the profit margins are much better than weed. If you want to cut off their biggest sources of illegal activity, you're not only going to have to legalize some pretty serious drugs, you're also going to have to legalize kidnapping, murder, blackmail and racketeering. The idea that the only way cartels make money is on drugs is terribly myopic.
      - lmm 11y ago
        I'm not saying we should legalise all profitable things. But when the profit:social harm ratio is large, making them illegal may do more harm than good. Every extra product line helps the cartels - if it wasn't profitable they wouldn't be doing it. Kidnapping and racketeering are expensive and dangerous; drugs are not their only source of income but they are a big one.
  - dev1n 11y ago
    It's the same logical leap as legalizing alcohol during the prohibition era reduced violence [1]. See Figure 4 - Homicide Rate (1910 - 1944). [1]: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-157.html http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-157.html
arbitrage 11y ago
It's not all black/white good guy vs. bad guy stuff. This thing is so big, it creates problems of its own. http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/americas-dirtiest-cops-cash-cocaine-texas-hidalgo-county-20150105 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/americas-dirtie... It's pretty much proven we can't control the flow of drugs. The cost of attempting to do so is too high. We should just stop.
pyre 11y ago
I think the idea that most law enforcement agencies try to paint everyone that they are taking action against as the "bad guys" is a dangerous road. This is how you end up using SWAT teams to serve warrants to unpaid parking tickets. It attempts to make the law some sort of "good vs. bad" moral struggle. I'm sure that there are many laws in other countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia) that we would disagree make someone "bad" for breaking them. That said, painting the Mexican cartels as some sort of group of "freedom fighters" trying to bring drugs to the impoverished, oppressed masses is hopelessly naive.

What the hell are you even talking about? How is the police force battling _illegal_ drug traffickers the bad guys here?

by scient 11y ago

What the hell are you even talking about? How is the police force battling _illegal_ drug traffickers the bad guys here?

dev1n 11y ago

it's common knowledge that legalizing drugs would destroy incomes for gangs, who as we all know are the root of violent crimes. If the gangs don't exist, the violence drops.

at-fates-hands 11y ago
Wow - that's quite a leap. Legalize drugs, then the Cartels just say, "Oh, you guys legalized all the drugs were smuggling into your country? I guess we better quit our gang get day jobs now." Just like we saw when marijuana was legalized here, the cartels simply diversified and started smuggling more heroin, coke and meth and less marijuana. Did their violence subside? Nope. Did it really have a huge impact on their business? Hardly.
- dasil003 11y ago
  The idea is to legalize and control all drugs. Where will the cartels get their money from?
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Some drugs are still going to be cheaper from the illegal market. Criminal gangs don't pay tax; sometimes use slave labour; don't have the best quality control; etc. See also the amount of counterfeit and smuggled cigarettes in the UK.
    - simonh 11y ago
      True but the effect is likely to be fairly small. It's probably better to compare legalization of most drugs to the end of prohibition. That saw a collapse in crime and incarceration rates back towards (although admittedly not all the way down to) pre-prohibition levels which only picked up again with the war on drugs. If you don't trust that comparison, how about looking at the actual real world effects seen recently in Western countries such as Holland and Portugal that have tried this.
      - DanBC 11y ago
        Yes, but it's still a problem. UK customs agents seize about 1m cigarettes per day. There are about 10m smokers in the UK, so if they smoke about 20 a day that's about 200m cigarettes per day. 1m isn't much compared to that. But it's still there. (But I do strongly support legalisation of drugs. I just think there's some stuff to be learnt from UK)
    - jessaustin 11y ago
      The black market is a natural limit on the "effectiveness" of sales taxes. High enough taxes constitute de facto prohibition, especially for poorer segments of the market. Thus a high enough tax can't really be justified by the goals of collecting funds or discouraging vice. The criminal activity is the point; how else could they justify employing so many more police than a rational system of laws would require?
- lmm 11y ago
  So wait, were the cartels sitting around ignoring heroin/coke/meth as long as marijuana was illegal? That makes no sense. Not every cartel will go out of business immediately, but if you cut off a big source of illegal funds it absolutely will mean less illegal activity.
  - at-fates-hands 11y ago
    They weren't, but like all big corporations, they diversified their product lines: - Losing marijuana business, Mexican cartels push heroin and meth -https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/losing-marijuana-business-mexican-cartels-push-heroin-and-meth/2015/01/11/91fe44ce-8532-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/losing-mar... - Marijuana Legalization Sparks Heroin, Meth Trade Increase with Mexican Cartels - https://www.thefix.com/content/marijuana-legalization-sparks-heroin-meth-trade-increase-mexican-cartels https://www.thefix.com/content/marijuana-legalization-sparks... - Drug Cartels Turning to Meth, Heroin After Pot Legalization in U.S. - http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/05/19/drug-cartels-turning-meth-heroin-after-pot-legalization-us http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/05/19/drug-cartels-turning-m... - Have Changing Marijuana Laws Led to an Increase in Heroin & Meth Smuggling? - http://lighthouserecoveryinstitute.com/have-changing-marijuana-laws-led-to-an-increase-in-heroin-meth-smuggling/ http://lighthouserecoveryinstitute.com/have-changing-marijua... Also, marijuana was never much money for the cartels, the real money has always been in heroin and meth. It's much cheaper to produce and the profit margins are much better than weed. If you want to cut off their biggest sources of illegal activity, you're not only going to have to legalize some pretty serious drugs, you're also going to have to legalize kidnapping, murder, blackmail and racketeering. The idea that the only way cartels make money is on drugs is terribly myopic.
    - lmm 11y ago
      I'm not saying we should legalise all profitable things. But when the profit:social harm ratio is large, making them illegal may do more harm than good. Every extra product line helps the cartels - if it wasn't profitable they wouldn't be doing it. Kidnapping and racketeering are expensive and dangerous; drugs are not their only source of income but they are a big one.
- dev1n 11y ago
  It's the same logical leap as legalizing alcohol during the prohibition era reduced violence [1]. See Figure 4 - Homicide Rate (1910 - 1944). [1]: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-157.html http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-157.html

arbitrage 11y ago

It's not all black/white good guy vs. bad guy stuff. This thing is so big, it creates problems of its own. http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/americas-dirtiest-cops-cash-cocaine-texas-hidalgo-county-20150105 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/americas-dirtie... It's pretty much proven we can't control the flow of drugs. The cost of attempting to do so is too high. We should just stop.

pyre 11y ago

I think the idea that most law enforcement agencies try to paint everyone that they are taking action against as the "bad guys" is a dangerous road. This is how you end up using SWAT teams to serve warrants to unpaid parking tickets. It attempts to make the law some sort of "good vs. bad" moral struggle. I'm sure that there are many laws in other countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia) that we would disagree make someone "bad" for breaking them. That said, painting the Mexican cartels as some sort of group of "freedom fighters" trying to bring drugs to the impoverished, oppressed masses is hopelessly naive.