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Aaah, Germany - the leader of privacy across the globe, the country where you're legally required to give up all your personal information in order to call some

Aaah, Germany - the leader of privacy across the globe, the country where you're legally required to give up all your personal information in order to call someone from a prepaid phone card you just bought for 5 euro. And where you're not allowed to open up your wifi hotspot because someone might download an mp3 with it.

prodmerc 11y ago
> give up all your personal information in order to call someone from a prepaid phone card you just bought for 5 euro. That is flat out untrue. I actually was surprised how easy it was to get prepaid SIM cards (just buy them at any shop/gas station, no info/ID required), load and use them however and whenever I want (also 15 Euros for 5GB 3G and works in USB data sticks, pretty nice). Illegal to have open Wifi, that is true :-) (I think it's a 125 Euro fine)
- wolfgke 11y ago
  > Illegal to have open Wifi, that is true :-) (I think it's a 125 Euro fine) No, it is not illegal per se to have an open Wifi, but there is the dreaded paragraph of "Mitstörerhaftung" - that means in lots of cases if someone does something illegal over your open Wifi (say copyright violation), the person who runs the open Wifi will be liable for it.
  - rbehrends 11y ago
    Störerhaftung (§1004 BGB) does not make you liable; it only means that you can be sued for injunctive relief [1]. Of course, under Germany's "loser pays" rules this means that you can be responsible for the cost of the proceedings. More importantly, in certain situation courts may consider the fact that a tort was committed using your IP as prima facie evidence that you were responsible (this is rebuttable, but can be difficult to prove). But in general, yes, it's purely a matter of civil law. [1] http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb.html#p3979 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb....
    - wolfgke 11y ago
      Thanks for the correction.
- mainguy 11y ago
  But...isn't that also helping with privacy? I think the difference is personal liberty versus privacy...
  - bryanrasmussen 11y ago
    well no, having a closed wifi is for most people not going to help with privacy because that wifi traffic is all going through some big telecom that also has some good governmental connections. Now that the wifi is closed the company and whoever uses the company's data feels more secure in assuming that data was used by you. An increase in the certainty of the data source is also damaging to privacy.
- neokya 11y ago
  Yea, this works. However, with some providers like Congstar you actually need to give all your details using online form before SIM gets activated.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    > However, with some providers slowmotion made assertions about germany's legal requirements, not the corporate policy of specific ISPs.
- hauget 11y ago
  "15 Euros for 5GB 3G" can you please provide more details on this? Travelsim is 5gb but is like 40eur.
  - thesimon 11y ago
    https://www.alditalk.de/surfen/ https://www.alditalk.de/surfen/ Aldi Talk. Coverage is good, speed is okay. 4G is supported in the main cities. Delivery is only possible within Germany, but you can grab the SIM card at any Aldi for 12.99€ including 10€ credit. Top up with a 5€ voucher brought at Aldi (ask at the register).
    - aluhut 11y ago
      Last time I used them, I had to register it. I did through phone with a fake address but they disabled the card some weeks later...
      - thesimon 11y ago
        Most providers activate the cards and send out a welcome letter via snail mail. If it bounces, the card get's deactivated. Doubt there are any providers who allow fake details forever.
  - prodmerc 11y ago
    Check out the prepaid card from Ay Yildiz, which is operated by Eplus. 15 Euros per 5 GB and 10 Euros for any subsequent 5GB in the same 30 day period. The cheapest prepaid 3G I found :-). Worked without problems in a USB stick, 14/5 Mbps download/upload speed.
- thesimon 11y ago
  >(just buy them at any shop/gas station, no info/ID required By law, they have to request your name, adress and DOB before you can activate the card (usually not done in store, but online at home). They don't need to validate them though (no ID required) and it's not illegal to make false statements :).
  - prodmerc 11y ago
    Huh, they didn't ask me for anything, I just bought the card and it worked as soon as I inserted it into the phone...
    - thesimon 11y ago
      The shop might've activated the card with their details for you. There are also a lot of preactivated cards for sale on ebay. But some details were given to the provider, just not yours.
  - ohitsdom 11y ago
    I'm guessing there's a few "Seymour Butts" living at the Prime Minister's residence.
- expertentipp 11y ago
  > That is flat out untrue. I actually was surprised how easy it was to get prepaid SIM cards The service providers offering anonymous SIM cards operate mostly on o2/BASE network which have very scarce coverage, only some of them use Vodafone network (better coverage), and I'm not aware of any operating on TMobile network. If you want to buy a SIM card directly from network operator (o2, Vodafone, TMobile) prepare your passport/id and document confirming your address. I'm really tired of this smug German "privacy is very important for us" bullshit - because no, it isn't.

prodmerc 11y ago

> give up all your personal information in order to call someone from a prepaid phone card you just bought for 5 euro. That is flat out untrue. I actually was surprised how easy it was to get prepaid SIM cards (just buy them at any shop/gas station, no info/ID required), load and use them however and whenever I want (also 15 Euros for 5GB 3G and works in USB data sticks, pretty nice). Illegal to have open Wifi, that is true :-) (I think it's a 125 Euro fine)

wolfgke 11y ago
> Illegal to have open Wifi, that is true :-) (I think it's a 125 Euro fine) No, it is not illegal per se to have an open Wifi, but there is the dreaded paragraph of "Mitstörerhaftung" - that means in lots of cases if someone does something illegal over your open Wifi (say copyright violation), the person who runs the open Wifi will be liable for it.
- rbehrends 11y ago
  Störerhaftung (§1004 BGB) does not make you liable; it only means that you can be sued for injunctive relief [1]. Of course, under Germany's "loser pays" rules this means that you can be responsible for the cost of the proceedings. More importantly, in certain situation courts may consider the fact that a tort was committed using your IP as prima facie evidence that you were responsible (this is rebuttable, but can be difficult to prove). But in general, yes, it's purely a matter of civil law. [1] http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb.html#p3979 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb....
  - wolfgke 11y ago
    Thanks for the correction.
mainguy 11y ago
But...isn't that also helping with privacy? I think the difference is personal liberty versus privacy...
- bryanrasmussen 11y ago
  well no, having a closed wifi is for most people not going to help with privacy because that wifi traffic is all going through some big telecom that also has some good governmental connections. Now that the wifi is closed the company and whoever uses the company's data feels more secure in assuming that data was used by you. An increase in the certainty of the data source is also damaging to privacy.
neokya 11y ago
Yea, this works. However, with some providers like Congstar you actually need to give all your details using online form before SIM gets activated.
- masklinn 11y ago
  > However, with some providers slowmotion made assertions about germany's legal requirements, not the corporate policy of specific ISPs.
hauget 11y ago
"15 Euros for 5GB 3G" can you please provide more details on this? Travelsim is 5gb but is like 40eur.
- thesimon 11y ago
  https://www.alditalk.de/surfen/ https://www.alditalk.de/surfen/ Aldi Talk. Coverage is good, speed is okay. 4G is supported in the main cities. Delivery is only possible within Germany, but you can grab the SIM card at any Aldi for 12.99€ including 10€ credit. Top up with a 5€ voucher brought at Aldi (ask at the register).
  - aluhut 11y ago
    Last time I used them, I had to register it. I did through phone with a fake address but they disabled the card some weeks later...
    - thesimon 11y ago
      Most providers activate the cards and send out a welcome letter via snail mail. If it bounces, the card get's deactivated. Doubt there are any providers who allow fake details forever.
- prodmerc 11y ago
  Check out the prepaid card from Ay Yildiz, which is operated by Eplus. 15 Euros per 5 GB and 10 Euros for any subsequent 5GB in the same 30 day period. The cheapest prepaid 3G I found :-). Worked without problems in a USB stick, 14/5 Mbps download/upload speed.
thesimon 11y ago
>(just buy them at any shop/gas station, no info/ID required By law, they have to request your name, adress and DOB before you can activate the card (usually not done in store, but online at home). They don't need to validate them though (no ID required) and it's not illegal to make false statements :).
- prodmerc 11y ago
  Huh, they didn't ask me for anything, I just bought the card and it worked as soon as I inserted it into the phone...
  - thesimon 11y ago
    The shop might've activated the card with their details for you. There are also a lot of preactivated cards for sale on ebay. But some details were given to the provider, just not yours.
- ohitsdom 11y ago
  I'm guessing there's a few "Seymour Butts" living at the Prime Minister's residence.
expertentipp 11y ago
> That is flat out untrue. I actually was surprised how easy it was to get prepaid SIM cards The service providers offering anonymous SIM cards operate mostly on o2/BASE network which have very scarce coverage, only some of them use Vodafone network (better coverage), and I'm not aware of any operating on TMobile network. If you want to buy a SIM card directly from network operator (o2, Vodafone, TMobile) prepare your passport/id and document confirming your address. I'm really tired of this smug German "privacy is very important for us" bullshit - because no, it isn't.