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> On the one hand you have the traditional server/sysadmin > On the other hand you have the desktop/web I've understood that systemd is about modernizing the

> On the one hand you have the traditional server/sysadmin > On the other hand you have the desktop/web I've understood that systemd is about modernizing the init/service system for modern usage scenarios. Gone are the days of the 80's when hardware was static and always plugged in, these days you have laptops that get docked and undocked, plugged and unplugged, connected to different networks etc. You have NICs and sound cards appearing and disappearing (USB NICs and DAC's), not to mention hard drives and USB drives... All of this needs to be properly supported on modern desktops and laptops and tablets. That's what systemd does.

pdkl95 11y ago
That was all possible many years before systemd decided to pretend it invented hotplugging and xinetd.
tremon 11y ago
/sbin/systemd doesn't do any of that. Hotplugging devices was the domain of the kernel and udev (and consolekit for user access). The only reason "systemd" does this now is because they replaced consolekit (yay) and absorbed udev (boo). You either love or hate the ambiguity of terms like "systemd" and "modular", and the way it has been exploited to full extent during the systemd takeover. "Modern usage scenario's" should still include reliable boot and predictable behaviour. Systemd seems to have been developed under an assumption of infallibility, which makes recovering from a failing boot much harder. And a failing boot is much more common under systemd, because it has been designed to fail hard instead of fail safe. I'm running Debian on seven systems, and only one of those is running systemd. The others simply won't boot with it, or are headless and I won't risk bricking them (see fail hard above). The one system that I do run systemd on, I've had to disable the lvm and luks generators because they would fail hard, and I've had to compile it from git because Debian's shipped versions of networkd and resolved are broken. I agree with the article that systemd adoption was premature. Throughout the discussion, I got the impression that the decision was forced because of primarily the interests of desktop and service developers, with only a minor nod to system maintenance. imnsho, "systemd" the project was not ready for inclusion. Systemd as PID1 may have been ready, but systemd the project does not allow systemd to run as PID1 without the rest of the project.
- noinsight 11y ago
  > Hotplugging devices was the domain of the kernel and udev (and consolekit for user access). The only reason "systemd" does this now is because they replaced consolekit (yay) and absorbed udev (boo). Yeah hotplugging has obviously been available for ages. > You either love or hate the ambiguity of terms like "systemd" Indeed, in this case I was referring to the whole framework and not PID 1. Personally I've been running systemd on my systems since even before Arch Linux incorporated it officially and I've pretty much never had any problems. I especially haven't had any boot related issues with it. I even have multiple luks encrypted disks attached.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Frankly consolekit was/is a mess (but at least it could be run on anything), and logind makes it one worse (systemd only).
pmontra 11y ago
Not sure about USB NICs and DACs but I was doing all the other things in the 90s. Yes, with laptops; Windows 98 SE probably. I didn't have any problems doing the same with Ubuntu 8.04 7 years ago.
notalaser 11y ago
> All of this needs to be properly supported on modern desktops and laptops and tablets. That's what systemd does. This has been done by Linux and udev for about 12 years now, if not more. Systemd is a recent player in this field. You don't need systemd to properly support hotplugging.

pdkl95 11y ago

That was all possible many years before systemd decided to pretend it invented hotplugging and xinetd.

tremon 11y ago

/sbin/systemd doesn't do any of that. Hotplugging devices was the domain of the kernel and udev (and consolekit for user access). The only reason "systemd" does this now is because they replaced consolekit (yay) and absorbed udev (boo). You either love or hate the ambiguity of terms like "systemd" and "modular", and the way it has been exploited to full extent during the systemd takeover. "Modern usage scenario's" should still include reliable boot and predictable behaviour. Systemd seems to have been developed under an assumption of infallibility, which makes recovering from a failing boot much harder. And a failing boot is much more common under systemd, because it has been designed to fail hard instead of fail safe. I'm running Debian on seven systems, and only one of those is running systemd. The others simply won't boot with it, or are headless and I won't risk bricking them (see fail hard above). The one system that I do run systemd on, I've had to disable the lvm and luks generators because they would fail hard, and I've had to compile it from git because Debian's shipped versions of networkd and resolved are broken. I agree with the article that systemd adoption was premature. Throughout the discussion, I got the impression that the decision was forced because of primarily the interests of desktop and service developers, with only a minor nod to system maintenance. imnsho, "systemd" the project was not ready for inclusion. Systemd as PID1 may have been ready, but systemd the project does not allow systemd to run as PID1 without the rest of the project.

noinsight 11y ago
> Hotplugging devices was the domain of the kernel and udev (and consolekit for user access). The only reason "systemd" does this now is because they replaced consolekit (yay) and absorbed udev (boo). Yeah hotplugging has obviously been available for ages. > You either love or hate the ambiguity of terms like "systemd" Indeed, in this case I was referring to the whole framework and not PID 1. Personally I've been running systemd on my systems since even before Arch Linux incorporated it officially and I've pretty much never had any problems. I especially haven't had any boot related issues with it. I even have multiple luks encrypted disks attached.
digi_owl 11y ago
Frankly consolekit was/is a mess (but at least it could be run on anything), and logind makes it one worse (systemd only).

pmontra 11y ago

Not sure about USB NICs and DACs but I was doing all the other things in the 90s. Yes, with laptops; Windows 98 SE probably. I didn't have any problems doing the same with Ubuntu 8.04 7 years ago.

notalaser 11y ago

> All of this needs to be properly supported on modern desktops and laptops and tablets. That's what systemd does. This has been done by Linux and udev for about 12 years now, if not more. Systemd is a recent player in this field. You don't need systemd to properly support hotplugging.