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Seriously. I can understand non-engineering-types calling SSL "SSL" still, but there's a point at which I will begin to date or discredit people's knowledge of

Seriously. I can understand non-engineering-types calling SSL "SSL" still, but there's a point at which I will begin to date or discredit people's knowledge of "SSL" if they're still referring to it as such (and not to one of the libraries like polar, open, boring, etc.) I don't generally like being a pedant, but SSL and TLS are different things that attempt to solve the same problem, much like WEP and WPA. Most people don't call WPA WEP anymore.

agwa 11y ago
> I don't generally like being a pedant, but SSL and TLS are different things that attempt to solve the same problem, much like WEP and WPA. That is not really accurate - TLS 1.0 is very similar to SSL 3.0. They're so similar that implementations use much of the same code for both. TLS 1.0 should have been called SSL 3.1, but because of the browser wars between Netscape and Microsoft it was renamed (SSL was invented by Netscape, Microsoft didn't want to adopt a Netscape technology). See http://tim.dierks.org/2014/05/security-standards-and-name-changes-in.html http://tim.dierks.org/2014/05/security-standards-and-name-ch...
geofft 11y ago
It's very different from WPA and WEP. "TLS" was a rebranding as part of the standardization process, for political reasons, and was not merited by any of the actual protocol changes. The wire format of TLS 1.0 looks exactly like how you'd have expected an SSL 3.1 or 4.0 to look, down to the fact that the version number field literally contains 3.1. The data structures are the same, the encoding is the same, many of the algorithms are the same, etc. And many of the protocol bugs are the same, and were only closed down in TLS 1.2. WEP and WPA are completely different protocols. WEP only supports a shared, fixed encryption key, and in its common mode has no handshake. WPA always uses a handshake and derives a per-session key for encryption, and therefore requires a stateful client. (This is why, e.g., on Linux, you can use `iwconfig` to set a WEP password but you need to run the `wpa_supplicant` daemon for a WPA-password.) WPA's handshake supports EAP, and WEP has no concept of it. And so forth. Perhaps you're thinking of WPA vs. WPA2? That's much more like SSL 3.0 and TLS 1.0: there was a standardization process between them, the protocol has been adjusted to address inherent security issues, there are more secure algorithms available, etc. but it's still clearly an extension of the original protocol. But here, again, most practitioners and implementors are happy to call both protocols "WPA" without any risk of confusion or inaccuracy.
- ricksplat 11y ago
  WPA/WPA2 is a very good analogy for SSL/TLS. Effectively the same protocol, but a more rigorously defined standard. In the case of WPA2 it was WPA as ratified by IEEE 802.11i, whereas the original WPA had to be rushed out to answer the immediate deficiencies in WEP.
- adrtessier 11y ago
  > WEP and WPA are completely different protocols. Nope, I'm not thinking of WPA/WPA2; I'm just destroyed here by a lack of my own ability to properly communicate things sometimes. At the high level, "SSL" is a term for an obsolete standard that encrypts connections, protocols be damned, supplanted by the term and the protocol changes that make up TLS. WEP is an obsolete standard for encrypting wireless connections (so is WPA), and WPA2 is the newest version. However, often we'll hear technical and non-technical people talk about how they implement "SSL" even though that's not technically the correct term to use anymore. Rarely do people use "WEP" to mean WPA. Does that make more sense?

agwa 11y ago

> I don't generally like being a pedant, but SSL and TLS are different things that attempt to solve the same problem, much like WEP and WPA. That is not really accurate - TLS 1.0 is very similar to SSL 3.0. They're so similar that implementations use much of the same code for both. TLS 1.0 should have been called SSL 3.1, but because of the browser wars between Netscape and Microsoft it was renamed (SSL was invented by Netscape, Microsoft didn't want to adopt a Netscape technology). See http://tim.dierks.org/2014/05/security-standards-and-name-changes-in.html http://tim.dierks.org/2014/05/security-standards-and-name-ch...

geofft 11y ago

It's very different from WPA and WEP. "TLS" was a rebranding as part of the standardization process, for political reasons, and was not merited by any of the actual protocol changes. The wire format of TLS 1.0 looks exactly like how you'd have expected an SSL 3.1 or 4.0 to look, down to the fact that the version number field literally contains 3.1. The data structures are the same, the encoding is the same, many of the algorithms are the same, etc. And many of the protocol bugs are the same, and were only closed down in TLS 1.2. WEP and WPA are completely different protocols. WEP only supports a shared, fixed encryption key, and in its common mode has no handshake. WPA always uses a handshake and derives a per-session key for encryption, and therefore requires a stateful client. (This is why, e.g., on Linux, you can use `iwconfig` to set a WEP password but you need to run the `wpa_supplicant` daemon for a WPA-password.) WPA's handshake supports EAP, and WEP has no concept of it. And so forth. Perhaps you're thinking of WPA vs. WPA2? That's much more like SSL 3.0 and TLS 1.0: there was a standardization process between them, the protocol has been adjusted to address inherent security issues, there are more secure algorithms available, etc. but it's still clearly an extension of the original protocol. But here, again, most practitioners and implementors are happy to call both protocols "WPA" without any risk of confusion or inaccuracy.

ricksplat 11y ago
WPA/WPA2 is a very good analogy for SSL/TLS. Effectively the same protocol, but a more rigorously defined standard. In the case of WPA2 it was WPA as ratified by IEEE 802.11i, whereas the original WPA had to be rushed out to answer the immediate deficiencies in WEP.
adrtessier 11y ago
> WEP and WPA are completely different protocols. Nope, I'm not thinking of WPA/WPA2; I'm just destroyed here by a lack of my own ability to properly communicate things sometimes. At the high level, "SSL" is a term for an obsolete standard that encrypts connections, protocols be damned, supplanted by the term and the protocol changes that make up TLS. WEP is an obsolete standard for encrypting wireless connections (so is WPA), and WPA2 is the newest version. However, often we'll hear technical and non-technical people talk about how they implement "SSL" even though that's not technically the correct term to use anymore. Rarely do people use "WEP" to mean WPA. Does that make more sense?