7 ms·

Let’s continue to build Product Hunt, together

94 points by csmajorfive 11y ago

tedmiston 11y ago
Some context for those who haven't followed this in the past week: 1. There was a controversial Medium post 6 days ago accusing Product Hunt's ranking system of being unfair amongst other things. > How Product Hunt really works (medium.com) 687 points by brw12 6 days ago | 222 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875 2. Then the same day someone started a signup sheet to build an open version. > Let's Create a Better Product Hunt (docs.google.com) 222 points by BetterLaunch 6 days ago | 98 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 3. Then someone built and launched it. > Show HN: Open Hunt – an open and community-run alternative to Product Hunt (openhunt.co) 1072 points by mhurwi 3 days ago | 176 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 For most of the day on Friday, Open Hunt sat at the #1 spot on Product Hunt, and Ryan Hoover was a good sport about it. https://www.producthunt.com/tech/open-hunt https://www.producthunt.com/tech/open-hunt
- sparkzilla 11y ago
  I also wrote an article [1] about PH, prompted by Ben Wheeler's original, noting that I was afraid to speak out earlier because I believed it would hurt my chances of getting funded. That's probably true, but whatever. Hoover's response is weak. He's basically saying that they have improved their FAQ. Woo, that's really reassuring. Anyway, I'll take my chances with Open Hunt, or anywhere else that values an open community for that matter. [1]http://newslines.org/blog/the-new-gatekeeper/ http://newslines.org/blog/the-new-gatekeeper/
- frik 11y ago
  Ryan Hoover's response to "How Product Hunt really works" article on Twitter: <person1>: Seems bad for @ProductHunt. Changes my perception of them. <link to article> Ryan Hoover: sad to hear, <person1> :( <person2>: That's all you have to say, really? Jerk. https://mobile.twitter.com/rrhoover/status/676926628979720192 https://mobile.twitter.com/rrhoover/status/67692662897972019... Someone pointed to this conversation in the OpenHunt discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760462
josephpmay 11y ago
What struck me from the HN thread on the article this is responding to was the vitriol directed towards Ryan. The general consensus seemed to be that he was a terrible person who was using Product Hunt to perpetuate the "Old Boys Club" in tech. From my experience dealing with him, that seems like the polar opposite from the truth. I don't know him well, but he appears to be a genuinely nice guy who loves discovering new technology and wants to enable people to share their creations with a wider audience. I do believe the OC made a number of valid points, and Product Hunt needs to evolve so that insiders have less influence. Still, it saddens me that HN's reaction was to make personal attacks and accusations. (most of the evidence given was anecdotal, too) I think Ryan's response clears up the reasoning behind why Product Hunt is structured the way it is. I hope that in the future members of the HN community stop and think before they make personal attacks based on a one-sided Medium article.
- sparkzilla 11y ago
  I don't care how nice he is in person, just as I don't care how mean Steve Jobs was. I judge people by the products they put out. If his product perpetuates the power structures of Silicon Valley and gives insiders special access then he's actually not a very nice guy.
  - Alex3917 11y ago
    > If his product perpetuates the power structures All successful social software is going to perpetuate the existing power structures at the expense of outgroups in some areas, and empower outgroups at the expense of the mainstream and the insiders in other areas. As it should.
    - sparkzilla 11y ago
      Social software can perpetuate existing power structures, but it can also create new structures. Software can also evolve to eliminate power concentrations. That's why it is important to always recognize that inequalities can arise in social software, and to devolve power in the system as much as possible.
minimaxir 11y ago
This is mostly a disappointing response that tries to deflect with "hey, we do good stuff too!" which is a PR move, not an argument against the events which caused the accusations against Product Hunt. The highlighted quote and central thesis of "Everyone’s upvote is equal — my upvote counts the same as yours" misses the point that the product selection process is opaque, and the updated FAQ of "we receive so may products per day!" does not absolve PH of that. (it's a 2 year old startup. They no longer get a pass on scalability issues). Speaking of the FAQ, here's the update discussing conflicts of interest: > "Do I need to disclose that I’m invested or advising a company I post to Product Hunt? Product Hunt is a place for authentic, honest conversation and we highly encourage people to disclose any potential conflict of interest in the comment thread." ...which misses the point entirely. The conflicts-of-interest are with the moderators themselves, and friends-of-friends of the submitters. And given the culture of PH, very few people will disclose a conflict of interest willingly if it hurts them. I'm not reassured that anything will change in the near future. EDIT: Added my comment to the comments on the Medium article.
- avinassh 11y ago
  > the events which caused the accusations against Product Hunt. can you tell me more about this? I do have a PH account, I have hardly used it, so I don't know much.
  - tedmiston 11y ago
    He's referring to the Medium post from earlier this week: How Product Hunt really works by Ben Wheeler https://medium.com/@benjiwheeler/how-product-hunt-really-works-d8fdcda1da74#.qbcdbg1wj https://medium.com/@benjiwheeler/how-product-hunt-really-wor... I have another post in the comments here that explains the context a bit more as well.
matt2000 11y ago
I just wanted to suggest to everyone here who is building a product this thought: product hunt didn't launch on product hunt. It was a simple email test which found an audience and grew from there. That's the opposite of hoping to launch on some list of top products and grab an audience. It's not a bad thing, but you don't need it. And if you're counting on it having a major impact on your traction, you probably shouldn't be.
- OmarIsmail 11y ago
  I wish every single person that is upset about ProductHunt's ethics internalizes this comment. The only people that should really care about PH's ethics are makers. But if you're a maker, you shouldn't care at all about PH. You should be busy talking to users and building product. If you're not seeing traction by doing those two things, then it is nigh impossible that getting on PH will do anything for you. And if you do have traction then getting on PH won't matter!
  - Alex3917 11y ago
    From the founder's perspective, ProductHunt is mainly good for developing your internal quality benchmarks. Build an MVP you know is good enough to get highly upvoted if it were promoted in the right way, and then try not to care whether or not it actually gets any upvotes when it gets submitted.
  - sparkzilla 11y ago
    Product Hunt's rigged system affects everyone in the startup community. Some of those insider's products had ZERO traction before being on Product Hunt. The insider relationship gave them the boost they needed to get attention from the media and VCs, while denying other startups who were spending their time doing what you say: "talking to users and building product".
    - matt2000 11y ago
      I honestly recommend you don't worry about it. If your users love your product then you'll be fine, and the only way I know how to do that is talking to users, iterating and just trying to figure things out. If you get those things right you won't have problems with press, VCs, etc. I know this is a gross simplification, but it's really worth trying to focus on what matters because there's so many ways to get distracted.
ascendantlogic 11y ago
Am I the only one that read (most of) this and didn't really see any direct responses to the criticisms leveled at it last week?
- sergiotapia 11y ago
  You're not the only one. They don't address any of the issues in this blog post.
FussyZeus 11y ago
Literally addresses NONE of the issues presented in the piece he's responding to. No one questioned the upvote system and how much each vote counted, though I'd say that's still dubious. When insiders exist to get your product on the home page and no one who doesn't use that method gets on the home page, and you have coordinated launches using SPECIFIC TIMES that it will be on the front page, you don't get to come out in a medium post with a cute cat and go "But, we didn't do that!" As I've said previously on here I'm a capitalist and I respect greed, but I don't tolerate liars. If you going to build and insiders promotion site, then do it, and own it. Don't backpedal when someone calls you out.
- aaronbrethorst 11y ago
  I interpreted this whole thing as 'I'm sorry you're mad.'
  - kirbyk 11y ago
    Me too.
swanson 11y ago
My big takeaway from the original post was that "early insiders" controlled the frontpage of ProductHunt. This post confirms that "early insiders" can still post straight to the frontpage. I see data from this blog post that is presenting an argument that the "early insiders" are a small percentage of the currently upvotes, but I don't understand why someone would opt for viral effects if you could just have an "early insider" post it directly. When I view the Product Hunt frontpage, I see nothing to indicate that a submission has been 'boosted' and that seems to be an area that could be improved if "early insiders" will continue to have the boosting ability.
hoodoof 11y ago
The guy is a politician. So many smokey words and mirrors, so little straight talk.
- maceo 11y ago
  It was probably edited by a crisis management firm.
  - hoodoof 11y ago
    Honest, authentic straight talk is the solution.
- sqldba 11y ago
  I know, right? So when I see all the HN comments about how dare we be angry at this person and how straightforward and ethical they are and that they only care about the community... it feels even more infuriating.
sqldba 11y ago
Wow what a crock of shit. They got called out for back room deals and ignoring products; and it's only after a revolt ready to make their entire operation obsolete that they publish a half hearted PR response that admits no responsibility at all.
DodgyEggplant 11y ago
It's digg all over again
- pdq 11y ago
  THIS. I remember Reddit being seen as the red-headed-stepchild to Digg, back when you could get 3-letter usernames. Digg was estimated to be worth $200MM. And then Digg v4 got released in 2010, with a huge community uproar. People flocked to Reddit, and within 18 months Digg gets sold for $500k. Product Hunt, your clock is ticking. Fast.
rjvir 11y ago
> Once the product has received a significant number of credible upvotes (those that aren’t manipulated by voting rings) from the community, will be promoted to the homepage within 48 hours. > Everyone’s upvote is equal — my upvote counts the same as yours — and ultimately upvotes determine what rises to the top of Product Hunt. To me, this was a direct contradiction.
- JMCQ87 11y ago
  Not only to you. Homepage or no homepage is a pretty staggering difference in "vote-weight".
jlukic 11y ago
My experience with Product Hunt. - Front page of HN, check. - Top trending weekly product on GitHub. Check. - Ability to get the in-crowd at Product Hunt to approve of my product for voting on their site. NOPE. The response was the same canned one that others have mentioned. AZ buying a product news outlet to advance their other startups is a vague accusation, but in my world not in the tin-hat territory whatsoever.
- tedmiston 11y ago
  I glanced at your bio and recent comments. I'll take a guess that Semantic UI is the product you're referring to. It looks like it was posted and got a few upvotes, but only shows in search results after clicking "Show all" on the right. I'm not positive, but perhaps this is a way upcoming posts are differentiated from front page posts. https://www.producthunt.com/tech/semantic-ui https://www.producthunt.com/tech/semantic-ui
- vincent_s 11y ago
  I'm using SemanticUI since 0.19.3. It's awesome, best UI framework I know :)
jsneedles 11y ago
Hi All, I'm new here and I'm familiar with PH. I'll come right out and say it - I'm a big fan. I think people are looking for a point-by-point response to the earlier piece... and that's unrealistic. If you look at the message being sent here, it's valid and honest. Some thing are addressed directly "your vote counts the same as mine" dispels the direct link myth. The change in % of "insider" posts making it to the homepage has substantially decreased meaning you don't NEED to be or know one of these people to make it. I've been on both sides - I've coordinated a launch with the help of PH & I've launched my own things at my own times. I've had great success and some flops doing both. There are pros & cons. But again... the frequency of this is certainly decreasing. It's not that you need an insider, but if you really want to have a "launch" they help... If you want to share something cool you made, and think it's good, and garner some useful feedback... Post away!
- minimaxir 11y ago
  While we're on the subject of disclosing conflicts of interest, you should note that "big fan" is a bit of an understatement when every other tweet you make is about Product Hunt: https://twitter.com/jsneedles https://twitter.com/jsneedles
  - lylemckeany 11y ago
    Are you suggesting that he has something to gain financially by tweeting about PH a lot? This comment makes no sense to me. I know Jeff and can confirm that he was a huge fan of Ryan and Product Hunt before ever meeting him. Jeff is the epitome of a super fan. He networked hard and moved to a new city (SF) to make the connections he has and to get his job at Meerkat, as well. He also doesn't angel invest, so he doesn't have anything to gain by posting the products he posts or tweets. Here's the other thing, there are a ton of other people around the world just like him. They're a big part of the reason why PH has been successful and has struck a cord with product fans and makers all over.
    - minimaxir 11y ago
      There's a large difference between "big fan" as he said and "super fan." I could have also pointed out a) he contributed to the source Medium article and b) he had openly criticized OpenHunt in the PH thread for "it's not Product Hunt." The point is that super fans are good for Product Hunt, but not good for people trying to get into the ecosystem based on merit instead of pandering to a brand.
byoogle 11y ago
I’m unsure as to why the Product Hunt outrage in particular. Every major distribution platform (the press, social networks, app stores, even Hacker News) favors insiders. Has PH been presented as a solution to this problem? (I never thought so, but perhaps I haven’t been paying such close attention.)
- minimaxir 11y ago
  Hacker News and Reddit do not favor insiders, despite popular misconception.
  - tedmiston 11y ago
    I recognize it's an edge case, but YC company hiring posts appear to go straight to the front page and stick for a little while.
    - tim333 11y ago
      At least that stuff is open though. It would probably be better for Product Hunt if they separated openly voted for stuff from the others similar to how Google separates paid and organic search.
    - minimaxir 11y ago
      That behavior is well-disclosed, and is only for job ads. It can't link to the product itself, for example.
kevindeasis 11y ago
People are beginning to move to: https://www.openhunt.co/ https://www.openhunt.co/ Just look at this HN post: Show HN: Open Hunt – an open and community-run alternative to Product Hunt (openhunt.co) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 How about their ranking system: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875
- wingerlang 11y ago
  > People are beginning to move Isn't this how it always goes? Something controversial happens, someone shows an alternative, it gets praise and a flood of users and is within a week forgotten about. E.g. reddit > voat recently. Digg > reddit doesn't count, as they actually broke their site.
  - tim333 11y ago
    Depends on the details I guess. I signed up to ProductHunt I a year ago and still can't comment, vote or submit unlike the chosen few and as a result have not taken much interest in it. If Openhunt becomes more like HN where I can do that stuff I think I'd use it.
    - xiaoma 11y ago
      I know, right! What if only YC employees, alum and their extended friends could comment here? Can you even imagine how many Show HN posts, including some by future founders that wouldn't have happened?
  - JMCQ87 11y ago
    Voat is not "forgotten about", it just doesn't have any mainstream appeal. The activity now is mostly from groups of users that have become "unpopular" on Reddit.
staunch 11y ago
> ...The problem is not so much the money itself as what comes with it. As one VC who spoke at Y Combinator said, "Once you take several million dollars of my money, the clock is ticking." If VCs fund you, they're not going to let you just put the money in the bank and keep operating as two guys living on ramen. They want that money to go to work. http://paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html http://paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html This is an example of A16Z killing a startup. They only care about about the big hits, so they'll happily dump too-many-millions into small products like ProductHunt and RapGenius, trying to force them to Get Big Fast. ProductHunt should've been operated by two people for 5+ years but they raised too much money. Communities can't really be bought with money. You have to grow them organically and authentically over many years. Hacker News and reddit are perfect examples to emulate. Digg is an example of the VC way of doing things.
- mkagenius 11y ago
  Blaming it all on the VCs may not be the complete picture. There are companies raising millions and not spending most of it and still doing good. Do VCs force people to take money even if they don't want to?
  - ddw 11y ago
    Yeah it reminds me of that one episode of "Silicon Valley": "No one told me that I didn't have to take the money!"
- tedmiston 11y ago
  To be fair, Rap Genius did grow a community organically over time. Google Trends "rap genius": https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%22rap%20genius%22&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B5 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%22rap%20genius%22&c... [2] Remember at Demo Day in their W11 batch, they had both: more traffic than every other startup in the batch combined, and more than any other YC startup at any demo day in history [1]. 1: Source: The Launch Pad: Inside Y Combinator 2: I think the fall off in the last year is due to rebranding to just Genius.
tonydiv 11y ago
Product Hunt faces a difficult challenge. Many people from the software/startup world are egalitarian, yet Product Hunt is a business. They must find a balance. A more democratic approach to this would work much better than the insider model they've adopted. Hacker News isn't a business, Reddit is, yet both are egalitarian. There does exist a balance that works. They've solved the problem of sorting good/curated products based on upvotes, but that is not the true problem. The harder problem is ensuring new products can reach the front page fairly. Reddit would not be the amazing community it is today if there were a curation team at Reddit determining what should be on the front page. If I were PH, I would focus on this problem. I would urge them to address the issues that the community is bringing up. His post does not seem to indicate any change will occur.
shahocean 11y ago
Oh come on! I had thought you are better than this! Another PR stunt?
OoTheNigerian 11y ago
Meh. This is a response to the traction openhunt is getting. Another version of "I'm sorry we got caught". Ryan, maybe had good intentions at the beginning then got carried away with the "stardom" and of course, with $6 million in the bank, a bit of arrogance took hold. His initial response to the Medium article was "lol", while that of the posse was "fuck the haters". He forgot his remit was building a massive community and not a small clique. Competition is good. It makes people humble. Product Hunt cannot change. It's "community" is vested in ensuring things remain the same. Just like fat cats. Reminds me of a certain logo. Coincidence? Edited: $6million not $16 million series A
- rl3 11y ago
  >... with $16 million in the bank, a bit of arrogance took hold. Uh, what?[0] Also, I'd argue that Product Hunt's Series A was almost modest in light of their popularity and growth last year. [0] https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/product-hunt/ https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/product-hunt/
  - OoTheNigerian 11y ago
    You're right. I meant $6 million series A. Corrected.
- thecupisblue 11y ago
  "traction openhunt is getting" lol
jrometty 11y ago
I encourage everyone with unanswered questions to participate in Product Hunt's LIVE chat. If you feel like a point wasn't adequately covered, drop by and ask Product Hunt's team directly. (link is from the article) https://www.producthunt.com/live/product-hunt-team https://www.producthunt.com/live/product-hunt-team
alexatkeplar 11y ago
My only interaction with Product Hunt was through the email harvester they ran on 17 December 2014 (a few months after joining Y Combinator) which found our company's public info@ email address and subscribed it to Product Hunt.
empressplay 11y ago
All you have to do is look at Ryan Hoover's "recommended" comments on his own post to get a sense of his position on things. This is a weak attempt at damage control that shows absolutely no desire on his part to address the central issue with Product Hunt: those people (in particular, those who aren't PH employees) who can arbitrarily post startups to the front page with no differentiation from those who made it there via popularity. Of course they won't change it. The whole "game" is to provide a system that on the surface looks meritocratic, but actually isn't, in order to give visitors the impression that the arbitrarily posted products / sites are popular (because they must be to have made it to the front page), and thus drive traffic to them. It's dodgy.
hoodoof 11y ago
If you want to protest, just don't submit your new startup to ProductHunt.
- hoodoof 11y ago
  Downvoted by PH supporters.
- JMCQ87 11y ago
  ... and then someone else submits it and it gets like 5 votes, so you can't complain anymore that you don't get on there. ;)
thetmkay 11y ago
I think PH suffers from an identity crisis. It started off as a curated newsletter and became a portal. It never fully embraced a community-driven approach (as evidenced by their opaque curation policy) nor a pivot to a more search engine/yelp-like community. In essence, they have yet to conquer their scalability problem: how to maintain quality while increasing quantity of products. It's a bloomin' hard problem to be fair to them. What I am most disappointed by is that with network effects, it is beneficial for a community as a whole to have one dominant portal. The one thing you want for a dominant community platform is transparency (there's an argument for decentralization too), a requirement that has yet to be met.

94 points by csmajorfive 11y ago

Some context for those who haven't followed this in the past week: 1. There was a controversial Medium post 6 days ago accusing Product Hunt's ranking system of being unfair amongst other things. > How Product Hunt really works (medium.com) 687 points by brw12 6 days ago | 222 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875 2. Then the same day someone started a signup sheet to build an open version. > Let's Create a Better Product Hunt (docs.google.com) 222 points by BetterLaunch 6 days ago | 98 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 3. Then someone built and launched it. > Show HN: Open Hunt – an open and community-run alternative to Product Hunt (openhunt.co) 1072 points by mhurwi 3 days ago | 176 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 For most of the day on Friday, Open Hunt sat at the #1 spot on Product Hunt, and Ryan Hoover was a good sport about it. https://www.producthunt.com/tech/open-hunt https://www.producthunt.com/tech/open-hunt

sparkzilla 11y ago
I also wrote an article [1] about PH, prompted by Ben Wheeler's original, noting that I was afraid to speak out earlier because I believed it would hurt my chances of getting funded. That's probably true, but whatever. Hoover's response is weak. He's basically saying that they have improved their FAQ. Woo, that's really reassuring. Anyway, I'll take my chances with Open Hunt, or anywhere else that values an open community for that matter. [1]http://newslines.org/blog/the-new-gatekeeper/ http://newslines.org/blog/the-new-gatekeeper/
frik 11y ago
Ryan Hoover's response to "How Product Hunt really works" article on Twitter: <person1>: Seems bad for @ProductHunt. Changes my perception of them. <link to article> Ryan Hoover: sad to hear, <person1> :( <person2>: That's all you have to say, really? Jerk. https://mobile.twitter.com/rrhoover/status/676926628979720192 https://mobile.twitter.com/rrhoover/status/67692662897972019... Someone pointed to this conversation in the OpenHunt discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10760462

josephpmay 11y ago

What struck me from the HN thread on the article this is responding to was the vitriol directed towards Ryan. The general consensus seemed to be that he was a terrible person who was using Product Hunt to perpetuate the "Old Boys Club" in tech. From my experience dealing with him, that seems like the polar opposite from the truth. I don't know him well, but he appears to be a genuinely nice guy who loves discovering new technology and wants to enable people to share their creations with a wider audience. I do believe the OC made a number of valid points, and Product Hunt needs to evolve so that insiders have less influence. Still, it saddens me that HN's reaction was to make personal attacks and accusations. (most of the evidence given was anecdotal, too) I think Ryan's response clears up the reasoning behind why Product Hunt is structured the way it is. I hope that in the future members of the HN community stop and think before they make personal attacks based on a one-sided Medium article.

sparkzilla 11y ago
I don't care how nice he is in person, just as I don't care how mean Steve Jobs was. I judge people by the products they put out. If his product perpetuates the power structures of Silicon Valley and gives insiders special access then he's actually not a very nice guy.
- Alex3917 11y ago
  > If his product perpetuates the power structures All successful social software is going to perpetuate the existing power structures at the expense of outgroups in some areas, and empower outgroups at the expense of the mainstream and the insiders in other areas. As it should.
  - sparkzilla 11y ago
    Social software can perpetuate existing power structures, but it can also create new structures. Software can also evolve to eliminate power concentrations. That's why it is important to always recognize that inequalities can arise in social software, and to devolve power in the system as much as possible.

minimaxir 11y ago

This is mostly a disappointing response that tries to deflect with "hey, we do good stuff too!" which is a PR move, not an argument against the events which caused the accusations against Product Hunt. The highlighted quote and central thesis of "Everyone’s upvote is equal — my upvote counts the same as yours" misses the point that the product selection process is opaque, and the updated FAQ of "we receive so may products per day!" does not absolve PH of that. (it's a 2 year old startup. They no longer get a pass on scalability issues). Speaking of the FAQ, here's the update discussing conflicts of interest: > "Do I need to disclose that I’m invested or advising a company I post to Product Hunt? Product Hunt is a place for authentic, honest conversation and we highly encourage people to disclose any potential conflict of interest in the comment thread." ...which misses the point entirely. The conflicts-of-interest are with the moderators themselves, and friends-of-friends of the submitters. And given the culture of PH, very few people will disclose a conflict of interest willingly if it hurts them. I'm not reassured that anything will change in the near future. EDIT: Added my comment to the comments on the Medium article.

avinassh 11y ago
> the events which caused the accusations against Product Hunt. can you tell me more about this? I do have a PH account, I have hardly used it, so I don't know much.
- tedmiston 11y ago
  He's referring to the Medium post from earlier this week: How Product Hunt really works by Ben Wheeler https://medium.com/@benjiwheeler/how-product-hunt-really-works-d8fdcda1da74#.qbcdbg1wj https://medium.com/@benjiwheeler/how-product-hunt-really-wor... I have another post in the comments here that explains the context a bit more as well.

matt2000 11y ago

I just wanted to suggest to everyone here who is building a product this thought: product hunt didn't launch on product hunt. It was a simple email test which found an audience and grew from there. That's the opposite of hoping to launch on some list of top products and grab an audience. It's not a bad thing, but you don't need it. And if you're counting on it having a major impact on your traction, you probably shouldn't be.

OmarIsmail 11y ago
I wish every single person that is upset about ProductHunt's ethics internalizes this comment. The only people that should really care about PH's ethics are makers. But if you're a maker, you shouldn't care at all about PH. You should be busy talking to users and building product. If you're not seeing traction by doing those two things, then it is nigh impossible that getting on PH will do anything for you. And if you do have traction then getting on PH won't matter!
- Alex3917 11y ago
  From the founder's perspective, ProductHunt is mainly good for developing your internal quality benchmarks. Build an MVP you know is good enough to get highly upvoted if it were promoted in the right way, and then try not to care whether or not it actually gets any upvotes when it gets submitted.
- sparkzilla 11y ago
  Product Hunt's rigged system affects everyone in the startup community. Some of those insider's products had ZERO traction before being on Product Hunt. The insider relationship gave them the boost they needed to get attention from the media and VCs, while denying other startups who were spending their time doing what you say: "talking to users and building product".
  - matt2000 11y ago
    I honestly recommend you don't worry about it. If your users love your product then you'll be fine, and the only way I know how to do that is talking to users, iterating and just trying to figure things out. If you get those things right you won't have problems with press, VCs, etc. I know this is a gross simplification, but it's really worth trying to focus on what matters because there's so many ways to get distracted.

ascendantlogic 11y ago

Am I the only one that read (most of) this and didn't really see any direct responses to the criticisms leveled at it last week?

sergiotapia 11y ago
You're not the only one. They don't address any of the issues in this blog post.

FussyZeus 11y ago

Literally addresses NONE of the issues presented in the piece he's responding to. No one questioned the upvote system and how much each vote counted, though I'd say that's still dubious. When insiders exist to get your product on the home page and no one who doesn't use that method gets on the home page, and you have coordinated launches using SPECIFIC TIMES that it will be on the front page, you don't get to come out in a medium post with a cute cat and go "But, we didn't do that!" As I've said previously on here I'm a capitalist and I respect greed, but I don't tolerate liars. If you going to build and insiders promotion site, then do it, and own it. Don't backpedal when someone calls you out.

aaronbrethorst 11y ago
I interpreted this whole thing as 'I'm sorry you're mad.'
- kirbyk 11y ago
  Me too.

swanson 11y ago

My big takeaway from the original post was that "early insiders" controlled the frontpage of ProductHunt. This post confirms that "early insiders" can still post straight to the frontpage. I see data from this blog post that is presenting an argument that the "early insiders" are a small percentage of the currently upvotes, but I don't understand why someone would opt for viral effects if you could just have an "early insider" post it directly. When I view the Product Hunt frontpage, I see nothing to indicate that a submission has been 'boosted' and that seems to be an area that could be improved if "early insiders" will continue to have the boosting ability.

hoodoof 11y ago

The guy is a politician. So many smokey words and mirrors, so little straight talk.

maceo 11y ago
It was probably edited by a crisis management firm.
- hoodoof 11y ago
  Honest, authentic straight talk is the solution.
sqldba 11y ago
I know, right? So when I see all the HN comments about how dare we be angry at this person and how straightforward and ethical they are and that they only care about the community... it feels even more infuriating.

sqldba 11y ago

Wow what a crock of shit. They got called out for back room deals and ignoring products; and it's only after a revolt ready to make their entire operation obsolete that they publish a half hearted PR response that admits no responsibility at all.

DodgyEggplant 11y ago

It's digg all over again

pdq 11y ago
THIS. I remember Reddit being seen as the red-headed-stepchild to Digg, back when you could get 3-letter usernames. Digg was estimated to be worth $200MM. And then Digg v4 got released in 2010, with a huge community uproar. People flocked to Reddit, and within 18 months Digg gets sold for $500k. Product Hunt, your clock is ticking. Fast.

rjvir 11y ago

> Once the product has received a significant number of credible upvotes (those that aren’t manipulated by voting rings) from the community, will be promoted to the homepage within 48 hours. > Everyone’s upvote is equal — my upvote counts the same as yours — and ultimately upvotes determine what rises to the top of Product Hunt. To me, this was a direct contradiction.

JMCQ87 11y ago
Not only to you. Homepage or no homepage is a pretty staggering difference in "vote-weight".

jlukic 11y ago

My experience with Product Hunt. - Front page of HN, check. - Top trending weekly product on GitHub. Check. - Ability to get the in-crowd at Product Hunt to approve of my product for voting on their site. NOPE. The response was the same canned one that others have mentioned. AZ buying a product news outlet to advance their other startups is a vague accusation, but in my world not in the tin-hat territory whatsoever.

tedmiston 11y ago
I glanced at your bio and recent comments. I'll take a guess that Semantic UI is the product you're referring to. It looks like it was posted and got a few upvotes, but only shows in search results after clicking "Show all" on the right. I'm not positive, but perhaps this is a way upcoming posts are differentiated from front page posts. https://www.producthunt.com/tech/semantic-ui https://www.producthunt.com/tech/semantic-ui
vincent_s 11y ago
I'm using SemanticUI since 0.19.3. It's awesome, best UI framework I know :)

jsneedles 11y ago

Hi All, I'm new here and I'm familiar with PH. I'll come right out and say it - I'm a big fan. I think people are looking for a point-by-point response to the earlier piece... and that's unrealistic. If you look at the message being sent here, it's valid and honest. Some thing are addressed directly "your vote counts the same as mine" dispels the direct link myth. The change in % of "insider" posts making it to the homepage has substantially decreased meaning you don't NEED to be or know one of these people to make it. I've been on both sides - I've coordinated a launch with the help of PH & I've launched my own things at my own times. I've had great success and some flops doing both. There are pros & cons. But again... the frequency of this is certainly decreasing. It's not that you need an insider, but if you really want to have a "launch" they help... If you want to share something cool you made, and think it's good, and garner some useful feedback... Post away!

minimaxir 11y ago
While we're on the subject of disclosing conflicts of interest, you should note that "big fan" is a bit of an understatement when every other tweet you make is about Product Hunt: https://twitter.com/jsneedles https://twitter.com/jsneedles
- lylemckeany 11y ago
  Are you suggesting that he has something to gain financially by tweeting about PH a lot? This comment makes no sense to me. I know Jeff and can confirm that he was a huge fan of Ryan and Product Hunt before ever meeting him. Jeff is the epitome of a super fan. He networked hard and moved to a new city (SF) to make the connections he has and to get his job at Meerkat, as well. He also doesn't angel invest, so he doesn't have anything to gain by posting the products he posts or tweets. Here's the other thing, there are a ton of other people around the world just like him. They're a big part of the reason why PH has been successful and has struck a cord with product fans and makers all over.
  - minimaxir 11y ago
    There's a large difference between "big fan" as he said and "super fan." I could have also pointed out a) he contributed to the source Medium article and b) he had openly criticized OpenHunt in the PH thread for "it's not Product Hunt." The point is that super fans are good for Product Hunt, but not good for people trying to get into the ecosystem based on merit instead of pandering to a brand.

byoogle 11y ago

I’m unsure as to why the Product Hunt outrage in particular. Every major distribution platform (the press, social networks, app stores, even Hacker News) favors insiders. Has PH been presented as a solution to this problem? (I never thought so, but perhaps I haven’t been paying such close attention.)

minimaxir 11y ago
Hacker News and Reddit do not favor insiders, despite popular misconception.
- tedmiston 11y ago
  I recognize it's an edge case, but YC company hiring posts appear to go straight to the front page and stick for a little while.
  - tim333 11y ago
    At least that stuff is open though. It would probably be better for Product Hunt if they separated openly voted for stuff from the others similar to how Google separates paid and organic search.
  - minimaxir 11y ago
    That behavior is well-disclosed, and is only for job ads. It can't link to the product itself, for example.

kevindeasis 11y ago

People are beginning to move to: https://www.openhunt.co/ https://www.openhunt.co/ Just look at this HN post: Show HN: Open Hunt – an open and community-run alternative to Product Hunt (openhunt.co) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10741827 How about their ranking system: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10739875

wingerlang 11y ago
> People are beginning to move Isn't this how it always goes? Something controversial happens, someone shows an alternative, it gets praise and a flood of users and is within a week forgotten about. E.g. reddit > voat recently. Digg > reddit doesn't count, as they actually broke their site.
- tim333 11y ago
  Depends on the details I guess. I signed up to ProductHunt I a year ago and still can't comment, vote or submit unlike the chosen few and as a result have not taken much interest in it. If Openhunt becomes more like HN where I can do that stuff I think I'd use it.
  - xiaoma 11y ago
    I know, right! What if only YC employees, alum and their extended friends could comment here? Can you even imagine how many Show HN posts, including some by future founders that wouldn't have happened?
- JMCQ87 11y ago
  Voat is not "forgotten about", it just doesn't have any mainstream appeal. The activity now is mostly from groups of users that have become "unpopular" on Reddit.

staunch 11y ago

> ...The problem is not so much the money itself as what comes with it. As one VC who spoke at Y Combinator said, "Once you take several million dollars of my money, the clock is ticking." If VCs fund you, they're not going to let you just put the money in the bank and keep operating as two guys living on ramen. They want that money to go to work. http://paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html http://paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html This is an example of A16Z killing a startup. They only care about about the big hits, so they'll happily dump too-many-millions into small products like ProductHunt and RapGenius, trying to force them to Get Big Fast. ProductHunt should've been operated by two people for 5+ years but they raised too much money. Communities can't really be bought with money. You have to grow them organically and authentically over many years. Hacker News and reddit are perfect examples to emulate. Digg is an example of the VC way of doing things.

mkagenius 11y ago
Blaming it all on the VCs may not be the complete picture. There are companies raising millions and not spending most of it and still doing good. Do VCs force people to take money even if they don't want to?
- ddw 11y ago
  Yeah it reminds me of that one episode of "Silicon Valley": "No one told me that I didn't have to take the money!"
tedmiston 11y ago
To be fair, Rap Genius did grow a community organically over time. Google Trends "rap genius": https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%22rap%20genius%22&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B5 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%22rap%20genius%22&c... [2] Remember at Demo Day in their W11 batch, they had both: more traffic than every other startup in the batch combined, and more than any other YC startup at any demo day in history [1]. 1: Source: The Launch Pad: Inside Y Combinator 2: I think the fall off in the last year is due to rebranding to just Genius.

tonydiv 11y ago

Product Hunt faces a difficult challenge. Many people from the software/startup world are egalitarian, yet Product Hunt is a business. They must find a balance. A more democratic approach to this would work much better than the insider model they've adopted. Hacker News isn't a business, Reddit is, yet both are egalitarian. There does exist a balance that works. They've solved the problem of sorting good/curated products based on upvotes, but that is not the true problem. The harder problem is ensuring new products can reach the front page fairly. Reddit would not be the amazing community it is today if there were a curation team at Reddit determining what should be on the front page. If I were PH, I would focus on this problem. I would urge them to address the issues that the community is bringing up. His post does not seem to indicate any change will occur.

shahocean 11y ago

Oh come on! I had thought you are better than this! Another PR stunt?

OoTheNigerian 11y ago

Meh. This is a response to the traction openhunt is getting. Another version of "I'm sorry we got caught". Ryan, maybe had good intentions at the beginning then got carried away with the "stardom" and of course, with $6 million in the bank, a bit of arrogance took hold. His initial response to the Medium article was "lol", while that of the posse was "fuck the haters". He forgot his remit was building a massive community and not a small clique. Competition is good. It makes people humble. Product Hunt cannot change. It's "community" is vested in ensuring things remain the same. Just like fat cats. Reminds me of a certain logo. Coincidence? Edited: $6million not $16 million series A

rl3 11y ago
>... with $16 million in the bank, a bit of arrogance took hold. Uh, what?[0] Also, I'd argue that Product Hunt's Series A was almost modest in light of their popularity and growth last year. [0] https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/product-hunt/ https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/product-hunt/
- OoTheNigerian 11y ago
  You're right. I meant $6 million series A. Corrected.
thecupisblue 11y ago
"traction openhunt is getting" lol

jrometty 11y ago

I encourage everyone with unanswered questions to participate in Product Hunt's LIVE chat. If you feel like a point wasn't adequately covered, drop by and ask Product Hunt's team directly. (link is from the article) https://www.producthunt.com/live/product-hunt-team https://www.producthunt.com/live/product-hunt-team

alexatkeplar 11y ago

My only interaction with Product Hunt was through the email harvester they ran on 17 December 2014 (a few months after joining Y Combinator) which found our company's public info@ email address and subscribed it to Product Hunt.

empressplay 11y ago

All you have to do is look at Ryan Hoover's "recommended" comments on his own post to get a sense of his position on things. This is a weak attempt at damage control that shows absolutely no desire on his part to address the central issue with Product Hunt: those people (in particular, those who aren't PH employees) who can arbitrarily post startups to the front page with no differentiation from those who made it there via popularity. Of course they won't change it. The whole "game" is to provide a system that on the surface looks meritocratic, but actually isn't, in order to give visitors the impression that the arbitrarily posted products / sites are popular (because they must be to have made it to the front page), and thus drive traffic to them. It's dodgy.

hoodoof 11y ago

If you want to protest, just don't submit your new startup to ProductHunt.

hoodoof 11y ago
Downvoted by PH supporters.
JMCQ87 11y ago
... and then someone else submits it and it gets like 5 votes, so you can't complain anymore that you don't get on there. ;)

thetmkay 11y ago

I think PH suffers from an identity crisis. It started off as a curated newsletter and became a portal. It never fully embraced a community-driven approach (as evidenced by their opaque curation policy) nor a pivot to a more search engine/yelp-like community. In essence, they have yet to conquer their scalability problem: how to maintain quality while increasing quantity of products. It's a bloomin' hard problem to be fair to them. What I am most disappointed by is that with network effects, it is beneficial for a community as a whole to have one dominant portal. The one thing you want for a dominant community platform is transparency (there's an argument for decentralization too), a requirement that has yet to be met.