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What's the relative risk that my specific control panel will get hacked and I, specifically, will lose all my data, vs. the risk that data on my local store wil

What's the relative risk that my specific control panel will get hacked and I, specifically, will lose all my data, vs. the risk that data on my local store will be compromised by a virus on my computer encrypting my whole hard drive and refusing to let go until I send XYZ bitcoins to a specific address? There's risks and then there's risks. As always, you can spend some time and money to mitigate some risk, and decide some risk is low enough that you don't care to mitigate it. I wouldn't just assume one risk vector is higher than another without some concrete numbers.

jacquesm 11y ago
There's risks and there's bankruptcy. If you feel like gambling then be my guest. What's the risk of your house catching fire? Are you insured? What are the risks of getting burgled? Your car stolen, a car accident? Are you insured? What are the risks of having a bad health issue happen to you? Are you insured? I'll bet that you don't know the answers to any of those questions, and yet, you are probably insured against all of them. As for your question in more detail: it happens often enough that for me if you operate your business 'in the cloud' and you don't have a back-up of your data outside of the cloud to guard against catastrophic data loss due to either malice or accident that I'll happily fail you. Think 'sysadmin was depressive, wiped out company' (or maybe you let him/her go and they took revenge or any one of a number of other scenarios that would instantly terminate your existence online if you had not guarded against it). Risk management is consequences * incidence versus cost to mitigate. If the cost to mitigate is negligible, the risk is measureable and the consequences are terminal then it is a no-brainer to protect yourself against this. At least one of my customers wished they had set up a backup facility for their critical data (too bad, end of story for them) and there is one published case that we all know about. That's two that you can count on and most likely other trouble shooters have similar stories. I see catastrophic cloud data loss as having a much higher chance of happening than many other items on the list of stuff that I verify before greenlighting an investment.
- fixermark 11y ago
  I see what you mean; I read "DON'T BLOW ANYTHING INTO THE CLOUD THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY OF" and thought of only my personal data (because if it's user data, it's originating from the cloud and I'm not blowing it into the cloud; if anything, I'm pulling it out of the cloud). Though if we unbox that a bit... How do we balance the risk of loss due to your cloud being owned vs. loss due to the risk of your users' PII being violated if someone attacks your in-house (ostensibly in-house reliability and security-managed) copies? Better make sure you're spending the money on security best-practices on all your copies, not just the "live" ones. Side-note: What are your thoughts on two separate cloud providers as providing sufficient insurance? Say, having your data live in Google Cloud and at rest in Amazon S3?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    That was Jason's use case that he had in mind, but for plenty of people the situation is the exact opposite but the principle remains. Having two cloud providers would work assuming they don't share any critical infra-structure and assuming that it is not the same set of employees that have access to both systems. Also helps if you have a totally separate set of credentials for the back-up system and if that back-up system can only be unlocked by very senior people (preferably execs) after a catastrophe of suitable magnitude hits. Whether you store your primary in the cloud or your back-up in the cloud the story is the same: have a copy somewhere else. Finally: the only real back-up is one that is off-line. So from that (ok, ultra-paranoid) viewpoint it would be best if you actually went to an off-line medium to store your data in such a way that nobody can wipe it all out without physically destroying all copies. All this of course after suitably weighing the importance of the data.
zeveb 11y ago
If your data is truly valuable to you, then yes, you host it (encrypted, I hope) in a cloud service to protect you from onsite issues; you host it live locally, to work with it — and you have a hard drive in a safe deposit box somewhere, as well, in case something goes wrong with the cloud copy.
alextgordon 11y ago
Read this and then consider if you ever want to write something like it. https://www.facebook.com/orainwikihosting/ https://www.facebook.com/orainwikihosting/
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That's very painful to read. Codespaces went pretty much the same way, here is what they wrote: "Code Spaces will not be able to operate beyond this point, the cost of resolving this issue to date and the expected cost of refunding customers who have been left without the service they paid for will put Code Spaces in an irreversible position both financially and in terms of ongoing credibility. As such at this point in time we have no alternative but to cease trading and concentrate on supporting our affected customers in exporting any remaining data they have left with us." They promised a follow up once they got to the bottom of what happened but they never did, I'm still curious what the whole story was.
- nsfyn55 11y ago
  Once again. I only entertain statistical arguments. This anecdotal nonsense is for the birds. Any given service can fail at any time. This is known kaleesi. You can poop out case after case of some shit wiki platform losing your bird watching posts and it won't make a lick of difference. You need to show me that its better with the magic of statistics. Should be easy peasy show me that you have lost less data(proportionally) than amazon over your entire career. I can make this even easier. Its almost certainly going to boil down to this question. Have you ever lost even a single byte of data? Cause if you have, you aren't even in the same ballpark.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    I really hope you have the guts to point clear-switch.com customers and prospects to this thread and that you will take their response to heart. Really, you're absolutely incredible, I've yet to see a person responsible for other people's data with such a block-headed attitude to hard won industry experience.
  - DougWebb 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

There's risks and there's bankruptcy. If you feel like gambling then be my guest. What's the risk of your house catching fire? Are you insured? What are the risks of getting burgled? Your car stolen, a car accident? Are you insured? What are the risks of having a bad health issue happen to you? Are you insured? I'll bet that you don't know the answers to any of those questions, and yet, you are probably insured against all of them. As for your question in more detail: it happens often enough that for me if you operate your business 'in the cloud' and you don't have a back-up of your data outside of the cloud to guard against catastrophic data loss due to either malice or accident that I'll happily fail you. Think 'sysadmin was depressive, wiped out company' (or maybe you let him/her go and they took revenge or any one of a number of other scenarios that would instantly terminate your existence online if you had not guarded against it). Risk management is consequences * incidence versus cost to mitigate. If the cost to mitigate is negligible, the risk is measureable and the consequences are terminal then it is a no-brainer to protect yourself against this. At least one of my customers wished they had set up a backup facility for their critical data (too bad, end of story for them) and there is one published case that we all know about. That's two that you can count on and most likely other trouble shooters have similar stories. I see catastrophic cloud data loss as having a much higher chance of happening than many other items on the list of stuff that I verify before greenlighting an investment.

fixermark 11y ago
I see what you mean; I read "DON'T BLOW ANYTHING INTO THE CLOUD THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY OF" and thought of only my personal data (because if it's user data, it's originating from the cloud and I'm not blowing it into the cloud; if anything, I'm pulling it out of the cloud). Though if we unbox that a bit... How do we balance the risk of loss due to your cloud being owned vs. loss due to the risk of your users' PII being violated if someone attacks your in-house (ostensibly in-house reliability and security-managed) copies? Better make sure you're spending the money on security best-practices on all your copies, not just the "live" ones. Side-note: What are your thoughts on two separate cloud providers as providing sufficient insurance? Say, having your data live in Google Cloud and at rest in Amazon S3?
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That was Jason's use case that he had in mind, but for plenty of people the situation is the exact opposite but the principle remains. Having two cloud providers would work assuming they don't share any critical infra-structure and assuming that it is not the same set of employees that have access to both systems. Also helps if you have a totally separate set of credentials for the back-up system and if that back-up system can only be unlocked by very senior people (preferably execs) after a catastrophe of suitable magnitude hits. Whether you store your primary in the cloud or your back-up in the cloud the story is the same: have a copy somewhere else. Finally: the only real back-up is one that is off-line. So from that (ok, ultra-paranoid) viewpoint it would be best if you actually went to an off-line medium to store your data in such a way that nobody can wipe it all out without physically destroying all copies. All this of course after suitably weighing the importance of the data.

zeveb 11y ago

If your data is truly valuable to you, then yes, you host it (encrypted, I hope) in a cloud service to protect you from onsite issues; you host it live locally, to work with it — and you have a hard drive in a safe deposit box somewhere, as well, in case something goes wrong with the cloud copy.

alextgordon 11y ago

Read this and then consider if you ever want to write something like it. https://www.facebook.com/orainwikihosting/ https://www.facebook.com/orainwikihosting/

jacquesm 11y ago
That's very painful to read. Codespaces went pretty much the same way, here is what they wrote: "Code Spaces will not be able to operate beyond this point, the cost of resolving this issue to date and the expected cost of refunding customers who have been left without the service they paid for will put Code Spaces in an irreversible position both financially and in terms of ongoing credibility. As such at this point in time we have no alternative but to cease trading and concentrate on supporting our affected customers in exporting any remaining data they have left with us." They promised a follow up once they got to the bottom of what happened but they never did, I'm still curious what the whole story was.
nsfyn55 11y ago
Once again. I only entertain statistical arguments. This anecdotal nonsense is for the birds. Any given service can fail at any time. This is known kaleesi. You can poop out case after case of some shit wiki platform losing your bird watching posts and it won't make a lick of difference. You need to show me that its better with the magic of statistics. Should be easy peasy show me that you have lost less data(proportionally) than amazon over your entire career. I can make this even easier. Its almost certainly going to boil down to this question. Have you ever lost even a single byte of data? Cause if you have, you aren't even in the same ballpark.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I really hope you have the guts to point clear-switch.com customers and prospects to this thread and that you will take their response to heart. Really, you're absolutely incredible, I've yet to see a person responsible for other people's data with such a block-headed attitude to hard won industry experience.
- DougWebb 11y ago