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While the authors are busy jerking themselves sore over American Exceptionalism, I'm still as alienated by the rampant focus on academic pedigree and class from

While the authors are busy jerking themselves sore over American Exceptionalism, I'm still as alienated by the rampant focus on academic pedigree and class from Americans as I was when I first learned about it. In my corner of the world, most people have these considerations when they choose the school-route (or not) in life: - Tired of reading and writing? Get an education in some trade. - Want a specific job that requires higher education? Continue school and get good enough grades. - Don't know what you want to do? Choose one of the former based on your perceived abilities and preferences. While there is to a degree some academic inflation, as long as there are people who are more inspired by doing hands-on work instead of becoming a white collar worker, I think things will be OK. Oh, and not having a college or university degree is not looked down upon. At all. Only the no/low-skill jobs, with low pay, are actively avoided if people can avoid them. So we have more of the poorer immigrants ending up with those jobs.

umanwizard 11y ago
I really don't think class and pedigree mattering is an American thing. I suspect you made the common error of pointing out something good about one of the ultra highly developed European countries, noticing that it's not the case in the poorer and more unequal US, and inexplicably thinking the US is the outlier. Edit: just to expand on this, the problems with the US are a result of the complicated system of cultural, political, and institutional issues. There isn't a Dictator of America who can wake up tomorrow and decree that everyone will believe in some set of enlightened values. So whenever I hear "I can't believe Americans do/think/believe X, that's so silly!" from Europeans, I can't help but think it's no more helpful than "isn't it quaint that Syrians care so much about religion" or "why can't Jews and Palestineans just get along?"
- benbreen 11y ago
  The parent comment fails to rings true to me in the case of the three European countries I have experience with, the UK, France, and Portugal. All three are in many ways even more obsessed with class-based academic hierarchies. For instance, students of Portugal's oldest university (Universidade de Lisboa) regularly wear 18th century style robes and were almost universally considered to be snobby rich kids by the Portuguese people I talked to about it. Oxbridge and the ancient English public schools that feed into it (Eton, Harrow, etc) are even more pedigree-obsessed than their US equivalents. And by all first-hand accounts I've heard, the French Écoles des Hautes Études tend to be filled with urban elites bound for government posts. Maybe Germany or Scandinavian countries are different but I think that being obsessed with academic prestige is pretty universal in the developed world, it's just that US universities like Harvard or Stanford have emerged as focal points for this global obsession.
  - throwaway999888 11y ago
    You'll note that it was grand parent that called me a European and not me. He happened to be right. But maybe that should tell you something about how I don't pretend to speak for an entire continent but just my corner of it. Maybe a part of the world with 50 countries has some variety within it, I don't know. And personally I don't identify as a European. I prefer Eurasian... ;) P.S. English class-consciousness is a pretty funny thing.
- throwaway999888 11y ago
  > I really don't think class and pedigree mattering is an American thing. Of course. That's my first instinct when it comes to my own culture, "that's not an X thing, that's just how people are." > I suspect you made the common error of pointing out something good about one of the ultra highly developed European countries, noticing that it's not the case in the poorer and more unequal US, and inexplicably thinking the US is the outlier. When the article sets up the usual narrative of the US leading and inspiring the rest of the world, I think it's topical for me to point out that, no, I don't resonate with those values. From someone who is from 'the rest of the world'. I don't know how the rest of the world works -- the world other than the US[1] and my own -- and I haven't claimed that the US is some outlier, really. I have pointed out that this particular kind of academic elitism is strange to me, yes. But the rest of the things are what you have filled in. > Edit: just to expand on this, the problems with the US are a result of the complicated system of cultural, political, and institutional issues. There isn't a Dictator of America who can wake up tomorrow and decree that everyone will believe in some set of enlightened values. So whenever I hear "I can't believe Americans do/think/believe X, that's so silly!" from Europeans, I can't help but think it's no more helpful than "isn't it quaint that Syrians care so much about religion" or "why can't Jews and Palestineans just get along?" Welcome to being a part of ANY kind of group with an insider perspective, with outsiders looking in. Of course you see your own world as being much more intricate, nuanced and varied than outsiders do. Yes, it's exactly the same as when outsiders of Syria and Israel comment on those places. You are just another group which outsiders have insufficient and even a skewed perspective on. I guess it wasn't as noticeable before when people had a different skewed perspective on the US, but more optimistic. I guess complimentary ignorance isn't as annoying. And I guess you would know more than me about how class and pedigree works where I live than me (it's a relative comparison, after all). At least you guessed the right continent, so that's a good start. [1] And I don't have the inside scoop on the US, either. But you know what I mean.

umanwizard 11y ago

I really don't think class and pedigree mattering is an American thing. I suspect you made the common error of pointing out something good about one of the ultra highly developed European countries, noticing that it's not the case in the poorer and more unequal US, and inexplicably thinking the US is the outlier. Edit: just to expand on this, the problems with the US are a result of the complicated system of cultural, political, and institutional issues. There isn't a Dictator of America who can wake up tomorrow and decree that everyone will believe in some set of enlightened values. So whenever I hear "I can't believe Americans do/think/believe X, that's so silly!" from Europeans, I can't help but think it's no more helpful than "isn't it quaint that Syrians care so much about religion" or "why can't Jews and Palestineans just get along?"

benbreen 11y ago
The parent comment fails to rings true to me in the case of the three European countries I have experience with, the UK, France, and Portugal. All three are in many ways even more obsessed with class-based academic hierarchies. For instance, students of Portugal's oldest university (Universidade de Lisboa) regularly wear 18th century style robes and were almost universally considered to be snobby rich kids by the Portuguese people I talked to about it. Oxbridge and the ancient English public schools that feed into it (Eton, Harrow, etc) are even more pedigree-obsessed than their US equivalents. And by all first-hand accounts I've heard, the French Écoles des Hautes Études tend to be filled with urban elites bound for government posts. Maybe Germany or Scandinavian countries are different but I think that being obsessed with academic prestige is pretty universal in the developed world, it's just that US universities like Harvard or Stanford have emerged as focal points for this global obsession.
- throwaway999888 11y ago
  You'll note that it was grand parent that called me a European and not me. He happened to be right. But maybe that should tell you something about how I don't pretend to speak for an entire continent but just my corner of it. Maybe a part of the world with 50 countries has some variety within it, I don't know. And personally I don't identify as a European. I prefer Eurasian... ;) P.S. English class-consciousness is a pretty funny thing.
throwaway999888 11y ago
> I really don't think class and pedigree mattering is an American thing. Of course. That's my first instinct when it comes to my own culture, "that's not an X thing, that's just how people are." > I suspect you made the common error of pointing out something good about one of the ultra highly developed European countries, noticing that it's not the case in the poorer and more unequal US, and inexplicably thinking the US is the outlier. When the article sets up the usual narrative of the US leading and inspiring the rest of the world, I think it's topical for me to point out that, no, I don't resonate with those values. From someone who is from 'the rest of the world'. I don't know how the rest of the world works -- the world other than the US[1] and my own -- and I haven't claimed that the US is some outlier, really. I have pointed out that this particular kind of academic elitism is strange to me, yes. But the rest of the things are what you have filled in. > Edit: just to expand on this, the problems with the US are a result of the complicated system of cultural, political, and institutional issues. There isn't a Dictator of America who can wake up tomorrow and decree that everyone will believe in some set of enlightened values. So whenever I hear "I can't believe Americans do/think/believe X, that's so silly!" from Europeans, I can't help but think it's no more helpful than "isn't it quaint that Syrians care so much about religion" or "why can't Jews and Palestineans just get along?" Welcome to being a part of ANY kind of group with an insider perspective, with outsiders looking in. Of course you see your own world as being much more intricate, nuanced and varied than outsiders do. Yes, it's exactly the same as when outsiders of Syria and Israel comment on those places. You are just another group which outsiders have insufficient and even a skewed perspective on. I guess it wasn't as noticeable before when people had a different skewed perspective on the US, but more optimistic. I guess complimentary ignorance isn't as annoying. And I guess you would know more than me about how class and pedigree works where I live than me (it's a relative comparison, after all). At least you guessed the right continent, so that's a good start. [1] And I don't have the inside scoop on the US, either. But you know what I mean.