3 ms·

Have an axe to grind, don't you? It's too late to get into a debate, but suffice to say that everything you're bringing up are concepts you carried into the art

by crux_ 17y ago

Have an axe to grind, don't you? It's too late to get into a debate, but suffice to say that everything you're bringing up are concepts you carried into the article and were not mentioned, even tangentially, there.

patio11 17y ago
You know the basic theory behind Five Whys, how a failure isn't a one-off event but it is the symptom of a process failure? And how that process failure is a symptom of another process failure, etc etc? Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are modeled that girls aren't good at math. Why are they modeled that girls aren't good at math? Because their teachers have "math anxiety". Here endeth all politically correct investigation of this topic, continue at thy own peril. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? Because their teachers are incompetent at elementary mathematical skills. See the article referenced by tokenadult, replete with examples of things like a K-6 faculty without a single person who could calculate the area of a rectangle. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? Because the schools hire and retain people who are incompetent at math. Why do the schools hire people who are incompetent at math? Because the schools have no hiring process which would weed out people are incompetent at math from the hiring pool, such as a simple test of second grade math. Whj do the schools have no simple tests of second grade math? TRICK QUESTION! Schools do have simple tests of second grade math. They are just prevented from actually administering them or using them to make hiring decisions, by union pressure. http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm Quote: Five Reasons to Oppose the 'Highly Qualified Effective Teacher' Mandate: ... It measures teacher performance mainly through use the use of standardized test scores... It contains harsh penalties that limit employment options for teachers... This proposal will likely exacerbate the teacher shortage problems we already face in [subjects like math].
- crux_ 17y ago
  Sure. But this is all supposition dressed up to sound convincing. Here's some of my own, hopefully somewhat convincing as well: Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are surrounded by a society where math is frightening black magic, a society which largely looks down upon anyone who is good at math, and particularly so those who specialize in it. This is emphasized for girls; the linked article provided evidence that their math abilities declined in proportion to the amount in which their teacher reflected those societal pressures. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? See above. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? See above. Also, their teachers were incompetent at math. (See the exact same referenced article.) Why do schools hire teachers incompetent at math? Most of all, because math is not valued. But also: Because there aren't enough teachers available to only hire perfect ones. Because the ways of measuring "good at math" are quite brittle, let alone measurements for "good at teaching math." ---- In other words, you have your axe to grind (unions) and I have mine (a thoroughly anti-intellectual culture); personally I find mine rather more convincing. Neither was really directly brought up by the article. [Also, my axe doesn't conveniently align with over-repeated, loudly shouted political talking points, which is nice. ;) ]
  - InclinedPlane 17y ago
    That may explain why public school teachers do poorly at teaching math. Maybe also science. But it doesn't explain why they are also bad at teaching every other subject, including English, music, and physical education. It's also hard to believe that the modern age, an age where being a "geek" carries an enormously reduced stigma than at any time in the past 4 decades (if not longer) is somehow paradoxically significantly more anti-intellectual than any other time in that range. In short, I find your arguments unconvincing as the explanation for the primary reasons why modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history. However, the idea that teacher quality has degraded significantly due to decreasing teaching standards and accountability seems to fit all of the observed evidence better.
    - crux_ 17y ago
      At this point, we're about 10,000 miles away from the actual article -- which did not contain a single mention of overall education quality, not one fact about how education has changed over time, precious little evidence for or against widespread poor teacher quality, etc. The sample size was seventeen, for hecks' sake, and it was about how if you put "math is hard" Barbie up in front of girl students, they do worse at math! > modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history This is an assumption that you and the grandparent both hold very dearly. But is it even true? Nobody ever provides anything but anecdotal evidence for this claim. A 'debunk' site: http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 Historical literacy rates in the US: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp If our education is so poor compared to recent history, why hasn't literacy fallen?
InclinedPlane 17y ago
I think these issues are relevant here, controversial as they may be. One of the article's central elements is the widespread nature of teachers who do not have a firm grasp of the very subject matter they teach, even at an elementary school level. That's a very serious and fundamental failing of the public school system and relevant to the discussion at hand even if the underlying reasons for that failing were not brought up in the original article. Indeed, I think moving the discussion one or two levels deeper is worthwhile. As in software development, there is almost always a tendency to discuss defects at a superficial level, often resulting in superficial fixes which mask symptoms instead of fix the underlying root causes. In this case the urge to paper over cracks in an increasingly fundamentally broken system is a mistake, better to find out what's at the root and fix the problems there.

by crux_ 17y ago

patio11 17y ago

You know the basic theory behind Five Whys, how a failure isn't a one-off event but it is the symptom of a process failure? And how that process failure is a symptom of another process failure, etc etc? Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are modeled that girls aren't good at math. Why are they modeled that girls aren't good at math? Because their teachers have "math anxiety". Here endeth all politically correct investigation of this topic, continue at thy own peril. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? Because their teachers are incompetent at elementary mathematical skills. See the article referenced by tokenadult, replete with examples of things like a K-6 faculty without a single person who could calculate the area of a rectangle. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? Because the schools hire and retain people who are incompetent at math. Why do the schools hire people who are incompetent at math? Because the schools have no hiring process which would weed out people are incompetent at math from the hiring pool, such as a simple test of second grade math. Whj do the schools have no simple tests of second grade math? TRICK QUESTION! Schools do have simple tests of second grade math. They are just prevented from actually administering them or using them to make hiring decisions, by union pressure. http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm Quote: Five Reasons to Oppose the 'Highly Qualified Effective Teacher' Mandate: ... It measures teacher performance mainly through use the use of standardized test scores... It contains harsh penalties that limit employment options for teachers... This proposal will likely exacerbate the teacher shortage problems we already face in [subjects like math].

crux_ 17y ago
Sure. But this is all supposition dressed up to sound convincing. Here's some of my own, hopefully somewhat convincing as well: Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are surrounded by a society where math is frightening black magic, a society which largely looks down upon anyone who is good at math, and particularly so those who specialize in it. This is emphasized for girls; the linked article provided evidence that their math abilities declined in proportion to the amount in which their teacher reflected those societal pressures. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? See above. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? See above. Also, their teachers were incompetent at math. (See the exact same referenced article.) Why do schools hire teachers incompetent at math? Most of all, because math is not valued. But also: Because there aren't enough teachers available to only hire perfect ones. Because the ways of measuring "good at math" are quite brittle, let alone measurements for "good at teaching math." ---- In other words, you have your axe to grind (unions) and I have mine (a thoroughly anti-intellectual culture); personally I find mine rather more convincing. Neither was really directly brought up by the article. [Also, my axe doesn't conveniently align with over-repeated, loudly shouted political talking points, which is nice. ;) ]
- InclinedPlane 17y ago
  That may explain why public school teachers do poorly at teaching math. Maybe also science. But it doesn't explain why they are also bad at teaching every other subject, including English, music, and physical education. It's also hard to believe that the modern age, an age where being a "geek" carries an enormously reduced stigma than at any time in the past 4 decades (if not longer) is somehow paradoxically significantly more anti-intellectual than any other time in that range. In short, I find your arguments unconvincing as the explanation for the primary reasons why modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history. However, the idea that teacher quality has degraded significantly due to decreasing teaching standards and accountability seems to fit all of the observed evidence better.
  - crux_ 17y ago
    At this point, we're about 10,000 miles away from the actual article -- which did not contain a single mention of overall education quality, not one fact about how education has changed over time, precious little evidence for or against widespread poor teacher quality, etc. The sample size was seventeen, for hecks' sake, and it was about how if you put "math is hard" Barbie up in front of girl students, they do worse at math! > modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history This is an assumption that you and the grandparent both hold very dearly. But is it even true? Nobody ever provides anything but anecdotal evidence for this claim. A 'debunk' site: http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 Historical literacy rates in the US: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp If our education is so poor compared to recent history, why hasn't literacy fallen?

InclinedPlane 17y ago

I think these issues are relevant here, controversial as they may be. One of the article's central elements is the widespread nature of teachers who do not have a firm grasp of the very subject matter they teach, even at an elementary school level. That's a very serious and fundamental failing of the public school system and relevant to the discussion at hand even if the underlying reasons for that failing were not brought up in the original article. Indeed, I think moving the discussion one or two levels deeper is worthwhile. As in software development, there is almost always a tendency to discuss defects at a superficial level, often resulting in superficial fixes which mask symptoms instead of fix the underlying root causes. In this case the urge to paper over cracks in an increasingly fundamentally broken system is a mistake, better to find out what's at the root and fix the problems there.