5 ms·

Teacher anxieties may subtract from girls’ math scores

9 points by araneae 17y ago

patio11 17y ago
This is not a girl story, or a math story, or even a teacher story. This is a union story, because unions make it impossible to reliably guarantee that American public school teachers demonstrate confident mastery of second grade math. Regular assistance from math coaches might diminish math anxiety among elementary school teachers, she suggests. Spiffy, we can spend more money on professional development (and pay union members to offer it, and pay union members to attend it) so that people with graduate degrees can bone up on their second grade math.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  A very compassionate and thoughtful article on this problem was published by the American Mathematical Society: http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf
- crux_ 17y ago
  Have an axe to grind, don't you? It's too late to get into a debate, but suffice to say that everything you're bringing up are concepts you carried into the article and were not mentioned, even tangentially, there.
  - patio11 17y ago
    You know the basic theory behind Five Whys, how a failure isn't a one-off event but it is the symptom of a process failure? And how that process failure is a symptom of another process failure, etc etc? Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are modeled that girls aren't good at math. Why are they modeled that girls aren't good at math? Because their teachers have "math anxiety". Here endeth all politically correct investigation of this topic, continue at thy own peril. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? Because their teachers are incompetent at elementary mathematical skills. See the article referenced by tokenadult, replete with examples of things like a K-6 faculty without a single person who could calculate the area of a rectangle. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? Because the schools hire and retain people who are incompetent at math. Why do the schools hire people who are incompetent at math? Because the schools have no hiring process which would weed out people are incompetent at math from the hiring pool, such as a simple test of second grade math. Whj do the schools have no simple tests of second grade math? TRICK QUESTION! Schools do have simple tests of second grade math. They are just prevented from actually administering them or using them to make hiring decisions, by union pressure. http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm Quote: Five Reasons to Oppose the 'Highly Qualified Effective Teacher' Mandate: ... It measures teacher performance mainly through use the use of standardized test scores... It contains harsh penalties that limit employment options for teachers... This proposal will likely exacerbate the teacher shortage problems we already face in [subjects like math].
    - crux_ 17y ago
      Sure. But this is all supposition dressed up to sound convincing. Here's some of my own, hopefully somewhat convincing as well: Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are surrounded by a society where math is frightening black magic, a society which largely looks down upon anyone who is good at math, and particularly so those who specialize in it. This is emphasized for girls; the linked article provided evidence that their math abilities declined in proportion to the amount in which their teacher reflected those societal pressures. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? See above. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? See above. Also, their teachers were incompetent at math. (See the exact same referenced article.) Why do schools hire teachers incompetent at math? Most of all, because math is not valued. But also: Because there aren't enough teachers available to only hire perfect ones. Because the ways of measuring "good at math" are quite brittle, let alone measurements for "good at teaching math." ---- In other words, you have your axe to grind (unions) and I have mine (a thoroughly anti-intellectual culture); personally I find mine rather more convincing. Neither was really directly brought up by the article. [Also, my axe doesn't conveniently align with over-repeated, loudly shouted political talking points, which is nice. ;) ]
      - InclinedPlane 17y ago
        That may explain why public school teachers do poorly at teaching math. Maybe also science. But it doesn't explain why they are also bad at teaching every other subject, including English, music, and physical education. It's also hard to believe that the modern age, an age where being a "geek" carries an enormously reduced stigma than at any time in the past 4 decades (if not longer) is somehow paradoxically significantly more anti-intellectual than any other time in that range. In short, I find your arguments unconvincing as the explanation for the primary reasons why modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history. However, the idea that teacher quality has degraded significantly due to decreasing teaching standards and accountability seems to fit all of the observed evidence better.
        crux_ 17y ago
        At this point, we're about 10,000 miles away from the actual article -- which did not contain a single mention of overall education quality, not one fact about how education has changed over time, precious little evidence for or against widespread poor teacher quality, etc. The sample size was seventeen, for hecks' sake, and it was about how if you put "math is hard" Barbie up in front of girl students, they do worse at math! > modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history This is an assumption that you and the grandparent both hold very dearly. But is it even true? Nobody ever provides anything but anecdotal evidence for this claim. A 'debunk' site: http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 Historical literacy rates in the US: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp If our education is so poor compared to recent history, why hasn't literacy fallen?
  - InclinedPlane 17y ago
    I think these issues are relevant here, controversial as they may be. One of the article's central elements is the widespread nature of teachers who do not have a firm grasp of the very subject matter they teach, even at an elementary school level. That's a very serious and fundamental failing of the public school system and relevant to the discussion at hand even if the underlying reasons for that failing were not brought up in the original article. Indeed, I think moving the discussion one or two levels deeper is worthwhile. As in software development, there is almost always a tendency to discuss defects at a superficial level, often resulting in superficial fixes which mask symptoms instead of fix the underlying root causes. In this case the urge to paper over cracks in an increasingly fundamentally broken system is a mistake, better to find out what's at the root and fix the problems there.
- hristov 17y ago
  Huh? Why in the world do you think removing unionisation will result in better qualified people? The only thing it will do is reduce the salaries. Their already low salaries, might I add. And when that the salaries are lower more qualified people will flock to those jobs, right? By the way the study did not correlate for teachers math ability but for their math anxiety. I.e. they were presumably able to master the material they just felt anxious dealing with numbers and the students were able to subconsciously pick up on that. And in general you are not likely to get any math wizzes as elementary school teachers. These are usually people that do their jobs because they like kids. Analytical people whether male or female are not usually the kind of people that consider being in a roomful of 30 children all day their dream career.
  - kalid 17y ago
    I gave being a teacher serious thought when leaving school (not elementary level, but high school). However, the thought of working for unions / under specified curriculum was a major turn-off. Right now I focus on blogging / writing / giving tools to teachers, but I think moving away from unions is a step in the right direction. Seniority should not be the sole way you advance in that profession.
    - whyenot 17y ago
      Seniority should not be the sole way you advance in that profession. It's not. Pursuing a masters or a doctorate at some point in your career is probably the best way to advance. Here, for example, is the salary schedule for a school district in silicon valley: http://www.mvla.net/Personnel/salaryschedules/Pages/CertificatedSalarySchedule.aspx http://www.mvla.net/Personnel/salaryschedules/Pages/Certific...
beloch 17y ago
If a teacher of either gender feels "math anxiety" when reading a receipt or teaching elementary school math, they probably shouldn't be a teacher. I honestly don't care about what gender stereotypes girls are picking up. The fact that teachers this bad at math exist in large enough numbers to produce decent statistics is far more shocking.
ewjordan 17y ago
I don't see any evidence that the gender of the teacher matters at all - based on the details the article provides, the study seems equally consistent with the hypothesis that girls learn math worse than boys in the face of bad teachers, for whatever reason. Or (less PC, of course) that girls are naturally less capable at (or interested in) math, but respond better to good teachers than boys do. Or any of dozens of variations on that theme. I'm not sure what the researchers were really hoping to accomplish here, honestly. Without looking at male teachers as well, both good and bad, there's absolutely no way to tell whether any of this "effect" (if you can even call it that, given the miniscule sample size and admittedly "small but statistically significant" (i.e. quite possibly bullshit) effect) is at all related to the gender of the teacher. This is exactly the type of study that makes me weep at the mere existence of some of these soft sciences - even if it was right, all it tells us is that we need better teachers, as if we didn't already know that. What an utter waste of time and money...

9 points by araneae 17y ago

This is not a girl story, or a math story, or even a teacher story. This is a union story, because unions make it impossible to reliably guarantee that American public school teachers demonstrate confident mastery of second grade math. Regular assistance from math coaches might diminish math anxiety among elementary school teachers, she suggests. Spiffy, we can spend more money on professional development (and pay union members to offer it, and pay union members to attend it) so that people with graduate degrees can bone up on their second grade math.

tokenadult 17y ago
A very compassionate and thoughtful article on this problem was published by the American Mathematical Society: http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf
crux_ 17y ago
Have an axe to grind, don't you? It's too late to get into a debate, but suffice to say that everything you're bringing up are concepts you carried into the article and were not mentioned, even tangentially, there.
- patio11 17y ago
  You know the basic theory behind Five Whys, how a failure isn't a one-off event but it is the symptom of a process failure? And how that process failure is a symptom of another process failure, etc etc? Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are modeled that girls aren't good at math. Why are they modeled that girls aren't good at math? Because their teachers have "math anxiety". Here endeth all politically correct investigation of this topic, continue at thy own peril. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? Because their teachers are incompetent at elementary mathematical skills. See the article referenced by tokenadult, replete with examples of things like a K-6 faculty without a single person who could calculate the area of a rectangle. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? Because the schools hire and retain people who are incompetent at math. Why do the schools hire people who are incompetent at math? Because the schools have no hiring process which would weed out people are incompetent at math from the hiring pool, such as a simple test of second grade math. Whj do the schools have no simple tests of second grade math? TRICK QUESTION! Schools do have simple tests of second grade math. They are just prevented from actually administering them or using them to make hiring decisions, by union pressure. http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm http://www.nea.org/home/18018.htm Quote: Five Reasons to Oppose the 'Highly Qualified Effective Teacher' Mandate: ... It measures teacher performance mainly through use the use of standardized test scores... It contains harsh penalties that limit employment options for teachers... This proposal will likely exacerbate the teacher shortage problems we already face in [subjects like math].
  - crux_ 17y ago
    Sure. But this is all supposition dressed up to sound convincing. Here's some of my own, hopefully somewhat convincing as well: Why can't our girls learn math? Because they are surrounded by a society where math is frightening black magic, a society which largely looks down upon anyone who is good at math, and particularly so those who specialize in it. This is emphasized for girls; the linked article provided evidence that their math abilities declined in proportion to the amount in which their teacher reflected those societal pressures. Why do their teachers have math anxiety? See above. Why are their teachers incompetent at math? See above. Also, their teachers were incompetent at math. (See the exact same referenced article.) Why do schools hire teachers incompetent at math? Most of all, because math is not valued. But also: Because there aren't enough teachers available to only hire perfect ones. Because the ways of measuring "good at math" are quite brittle, let alone measurements for "good at teaching math." ---- In other words, you have your axe to grind (unions) and I have mine (a thoroughly anti-intellectual culture); personally I find mine rather more convincing. Neither was really directly brought up by the article. [Also, my axe doesn't conveniently align with over-repeated, loudly shouted political talking points, which is nice. ;) ]
    - InclinedPlane 17y ago
      That may explain why public school teachers do poorly at teaching math. Maybe also science. But it doesn't explain why they are also bad at teaching every other subject, including English, music, and physical education. It's also hard to believe that the modern age, an age where being a "geek" carries an enormously reduced stigma than at any time in the past 4 decades (if not longer) is somehow paradoxically significantly more anti-intellectual than any other time in that range. In short, I find your arguments unconvincing as the explanation for the primary reasons why modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history. However, the idea that teacher quality has degraded significantly due to decreasing teaching standards and accountability seems to fit all of the observed evidence better.
      - crux_ 17y ago
        At this point, we're about 10,000 miles away from the actual article -- which did not contain a single mention of overall education quality, not one fact about how education has changed over time, precious little evidence for or against widespread poor teacher quality, etc. The sample size was seventeen, for hecks' sake, and it was about how if you put "math is hard" Barbie up in front of girl students, they do worse at math! > modern education in America is exceptionally poor compared to recent history This is an assumption that you and the grandparent both hold very dearly. But is it even true? Nobody ever provides anything but anecdotal evidence for this claim. A 'debunk' site: http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 http://pareonline.net/getvn.asp?v=6&n=1 Historical literacy rates in the US: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp If our education is so poor compared to recent history, why hasn't literacy fallen?
- InclinedPlane 17y ago
  I think these issues are relevant here, controversial as they may be. One of the article's central elements is the widespread nature of teachers who do not have a firm grasp of the very subject matter they teach, even at an elementary school level. That's a very serious and fundamental failing of the public school system and relevant to the discussion at hand even if the underlying reasons for that failing were not brought up in the original article. Indeed, I think moving the discussion one or two levels deeper is worthwhile. As in software development, there is almost always a tendency to discuss defects at a superficial level, often resulting in superficial fixes which mask symptoms instead of fix the underlying root causes. In this case the urge to paper over cracks in an increasingly fundamentally broken system is a mistake, better to find out what's at the root and fix the problems there.
hristov 17y ago
Huh? Why in the world do you think removing unionisation will result in better qualified people? The only thing it will do is reduce the salaries. Their already low salaries, might I add. And when that the salaries are lower more qualified people will flock to those jobs, right? By the way the study did not correlate for teachers math ability but for their math anxiety. I.e. they were presumably able to master the material they just felt anxious dealing with numbers and the students were able to subconsciously pick up on that. And in general you are not likely to get any math wizzes as elementary school teachers. These are usually people that do their jobs because they like kids. Analytical people whether male or female are not usually the kind of people that consider being in a roomful of 30 children all day their dream career.
- kalid 17y ago
  I gave being a teacher serious thought when leaving school (not elementary level, but high school). However, the thought of working for unions / under specified curriculum was a major turn-off. Right now I focus on blogging / writing / giving tools to teachers, but I think moving away from unions is a step in the right direction. Seniority should not be the sole way you advance in that profession.
  - whyenot 17y ago
    Seniority should not be the sole way you advance in that profession. It's not. Pursuing a masters or a doctorate at some point in your career is probably the best way to advance. Here, for example, is the salary schedule for a school district in silicon valley: http://www.mvla.net/Personnel/salaryschedules/Pages/CertificatedSalarySchedule.aspx http://www.mvla.net/Personnel/salaryschedules/Pages/Certific...

beloch 17y ago

If a teacher of either gender feels "math anxiety" when reading a receipt or teaching elementary school math, they probably shouldn't be a teacher. I honestly don't care about what gender stereotypes girls are picking up. The fact that teachers this bad at math exist in large enough numbers to produce decent statistics is far more shocking.

ewjordan 17y ago

I don't see any evidence that the gender of the teacher matters at all - based on the details the article provides, the study seems equally consistent with the hypothesis that girls learn math worse than boys in the face of bad teachers, for whatever reason. Or (less PC, of course) that girls are naturally less capable at (or interested in) math, but respond better to good teachers than boys do. Or any of dozens of variations on that theme. I'm not sure what the researchers were really hoping to accomplish here, honestly. Without looking at male teachers as well, both good and bad, there's absolutely no way to tell whether any of this "effect" (if you can even call it that, given the miniscule sample size and admittedly "small but statistically significant" (i.e. quite possibly bullshit) effect) is at all related to the gender of the teacher. This is exactly the type of study that makes me weep at the mere existence of some of these soft sciences - even if it was right, all it tells us is that we need better teachers, as if we didn't already know that. What an utter waste of time and money...