5 ms·

Reading this gives me a chill down my spine. There's something about a corporation controlling, optimizing, monetizing, and branding dominant components of a ch

by Archio 11y ago

Reading this gives me a chill down my spine. There's something about a corporation controlling, optimizing, monetizing, and branding dominant components of a childhood that just doesn't seem right.

rayiner 11y ago
If we weren't raising our kids to be such consumers--turning stupid shit like Star Wars into "cultural experiences"-- Disney wouldn't have any power. They can't own sticks and dirt.
- AndrewKemendo 11y ago
  You know the worst part? You can't even prevent it if you are raising your kids otherwise. My 5 year old has never seen a Disney movie, yet she told me today that for her 6th birthday she wants a Cinderella shirt and an Elsa costume - both characters she has never actually seen on screen. Her friends at school all talk about it though and recount fantastic stories. I hear from people saying that we will raise a kid who is out of the loop, so she won't be able to relate and will be an outcast if we don't keep her up to date with all the trends like her peers. At a certain point as a parent, it's kind of like, it doesn't really matter what we do.
  - JabavuAdams 11y ago
    You really have to experience this to fully appreciate it. Social contagion is real.
    - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
      As a developer, I do my best to engineer it into my product.
      - JabavuAdams 11y ago
        How could you shore up human weakness, instead of exploiting it? A question I've been asking myself...
        Jtsummers 11y ago
        You can exploit the weakness to help people in another way. How many of us grew up and mastered arithmetic with Math Blaster or similar? Gasification works and exploits a human weakness. Incorporating it into a game like many mobile games (FarmVille) just wastes people's time and encourages them to spend money on meaningless tokens and trinkets that will literally disappear at some point (as opposed to the still silly and useless trinkets you might get from an arcade prize shop, but at least those you can keep). Incorporating it into something more useful (or at least with a more valuable output) is a good start.
        AndrewKemendo 11y ago
        The problem is that our weaknesses are also our strengths, just in different contexts. Efficient heuristic formation is an amazing strength in many contexts, but it's also the same system that leads to racism, stereotyping etc... I have come to the conclusion that you really can't "shore up" human weaknesses without chemical changes or maybe some kind of tDCS type system. Even then, there seem to be some major tradeoffs. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_stimulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_st...
  - chetanahuja 11y ago
    "At a certain point as a parent, it's kind of like, it doesn't really matter what we do." Congratulations. You've discovered the true essence of parenting ;-)
    - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
      Not sure if you're being fun or patronizing, but I'll assume the former in good faith. Regardless, this is a highly contrarian position. In fact a recent article [1] comes to the same conclusion, as well as how controversial said conclusion is. [1]http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter-and-why-most-social-science-research-is-probably-wrong/ http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter...
      - chetanahuja 11y ago
        I'm being partly facetious, but only partly. I've thought the same thing to myself so many times about my kids too ;-)
  - anon4 11y ago
    You could think of it like, once Disney has permeated our culture to such a degree, people would collectively decide they don't deserve to own them and their kids and erode copyright. The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - rayiner 11y ago
      The problem is not that Disney can own entertainment products they create. The problem is our society elevating base entertainment to the level of cultural artifact. Disney has no power if people don't treat their disposable trinkets like sacred totems. The post near the top about spoilers is a good example. We're all supposed go out of our way go protect the sanctified experience of the movie for true believers. How messed up is that?
  - theandrewbailey 11y ago
    One of my friends has had enough with little girls talking about Frozen. If I'm describing something with that word (as in, describing the icy nature of something), he will scream "ELSA IS THE DEVIL'S WHORRREEEE!". This behavior is well known among our friends and has been exploited countless times.
    - dagw 11y ago
      Meh. Just wait until they discover Minecraft. Frozen is low alcohol beer compared to the pure uncut heroin that Mojang spawned.
      - theandrewbailey 11y ago
        He's been exposed. He's more annoyed over the kids fawning over a (who seems to him) an obviously destructive character. As an alternative, he follows the Elsa line with "Hans is the true king of Arendell", because of his charity during crisis. I didn't know who he was; for all I know, he deserved what he got. Then I watched the movie, and he deserved what he got. Neither of us like the movie that much, because it's monarchist.
  - zappo2938 11y ago
    Disney films are based on Joseph Campbell's comparative mythology. After the success of Lucas using one of Campbell's plots in A New Hope and Raiders of the Lost Arc, Disney decided to use this plot for all of their movies. [1] It isn't science, but it enormously compelling and effective. Why wouldn't you want your daughter to be like Elsa? Of all the role models throughout history for little girls, Elsa is without doubt one of the best. It is only recently that women weren't portrayed a submissive needing to marry the right man to be successful. Or, Belle? Beauty and the Beast is story about the inventor's daughter, a bibliophile, who is isolated because she can't relate to her bland vanilla society that rejects intellectuals like Belle and her father. I wouldn't write off Disney so quickly. It's worth reading the Power of Myth, the transcript of the interview between Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell, because you might appreciate the thinking behind Disney movies. You will find that there are people in control at Disney who share your values. I can't pass judgement on parenting. However, there is a big difference allowing children to watch a Disney movie once a month or even once a week and letting children watch television 4 hours a day after school. [1] http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm
- pen2l 11y ago
  Are we really "raising our kids to be consumers"? I mean, you have to really go out of your way to not make them consumers. I don't even know how it's possible. I recall you have a daughter -- does she not go on and on with the 'let it go' song? When she goes to a store does she not by her own accord beg you to buy her Elsa and Anna themed toys? If not, what are you doing as a parent to not make them consumers? Lots would like to know!
  - mixmastamyk 11y ago
    I'm not anti-disney really, we let ours watch Mary Poppins and Frozen a few times. But it isn't really hard, you just get rid of the TV (best thing you can do, commercials are a cancer) and focus instead on books and (real) music in the evenings. The Peanuts Christmas album (vince guaraldi trio) is wonderful this time of year.
shmerl 11y ago
> There's something about a corporation controlling, optimizing, monetizing, and branding dominant components of a childhood that just doesn't seem right. And especially such one as Disney...
fennecfoxen 11y ago
It's a little self-limiting in the end, at least. The more Disney throws recycled characters in our face as part of a bland franchise-entertainment product, the more compelling real original work will become, and the more likely they are to ruin the childhood magic. I also find hope in recent developments overseas, and anticipate the impact of works such as Puella Magi Madoka Magica on the future of children's television here in the US as well.
- orionblastar 11y ago
  Disney got started by recycling fairy tales with happy endings instead of sad endings the original books had. Marvel, Star Wars, etc got recycled as well. Marvel got an all brand new universe after destroying Earth-616 and the Ultimate universe to make Secret Wars, and then after Secret Wars they changed things up in the comic books. Star Wars they basically rewrote Episode 4 A New Hope as Episode 7 The Force Awakens by changing the character names and roles. All of this is focused on the young that didn't watch or read the original materials. Disney is youth focused, so us older people in our childhood we had things different in Marvel and Star Wars, and under Disney they have been recycled and changed for a global market now instead of just the USA, etc. There was a time when the Disney Channel was stealing ideas from Nickelodeon for shows with teens/tweens. But now owning Marvel and Star Wars they can make shows based on those characters on their own channel without having to steal ideas from others.
- angersock 11y ago
  Puella Magi Madoka Magica is most certainly not children's television. ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼
  - 14111411 11y ago
    What about bokurano? There are at least 15 children there! It must be good for them!
  - fennecfoxen 11y ago
    It most certainly is! Maybe not little children, but have you seen the marketing on that thing? The main character is 14, but it will easily pick up the whole 8-to-16 set with that, especially if some 13-year-old watching it in middle school has a little sister who looks up to her and they watch shows together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTeM68aOpMM&t=30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTeM68aOpMM&t=30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CTHwEZK2JA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CTHwEZK2JA Or the Madoka-inspired Yuki Yuna Is a Hero, which doubles down on the happy fun times (investing a full five episodes instead of Madoka's two-and-a-half): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ljIjdf0Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ljIjdf0Vg More importantly, even if American audiences shouldn't expect such overtly dark shows in front of small children any time soon, creators are definitely paying attention, and Madoka is exactly the sort of phenomenon which gets creators of all sorts thinking about how to up their game and make something that's meaningful (dark or otherwise). Everybody wins.
gilgoomesh 11y ago
The things Disney are buying were always controlled, monetized and branded. Lucasfilm, Pixar and Marvel were not little community driven charities.
- caseysoftware 11y ago
  I saw The Force Awakens at Alamo Drafthouse and they had little montages of some of the marketing and merchandising that went on throughout the original trilogy. Toys, breakfast cereals, even a C3-PO and RS-D2 anti-smoking commercial. Space Balls even made fun of it! Anyone who thinks Star Wars wasn't super-monetized on Day One isn't old enough to remember it.
  - wavefunction 11y ago
    Star Wars invented and perfected the tie-in. That was George Lucas' real and major contribution to movies as a business.
roywiggins 11y ago
Apart from the monopolization, is it at all new? ex: Lego. Lego is not produced by artisan plasticsmiths down the street, they're a big company.
- Wingman4l7 11y ago
  Well, before their patent expired, it seemed that they were less focused on getting exclusive trademark rights for movie-franchise-branded brick sets.
  - knughit 11y ago
    Lego sells both general bricks and licensed IP characters. Guess which 90% of their consumers prefer?
rdtsc 11y ago
Yap, there is no other place to see this better than going to Disney World. That place is super-optimized for maximum throughtput of people, maximum magic to capture children's imagination, good service, friendly atmosphere, and maximum extraction of your money. Even in supposedly a recession, the place was packed with people. With my kid, most characters and shows they like, are owned by Disney. We were going through the list recently and there was a handful only that were not Disney owned. Disney owns the childhood, that not a joke.

by Archio 11y ago

Reading this gives me a chill down my spine. There's something about a corporation controlling, optimizing, monetizing, and branding dominant components of a childhood that just doesn't seem right.

rayiner 11y ago

If we weren't raising our kids to be such consumers--turning stupid shit like Star Wars into "cultural experiences"-- Disney wouldn't have any power. They can't own sticks and dirt.

AndrewKemendo 11y ago
You know the worst part? You can't even prevent it if you are raising your kids otherwise. My 5 year old has never seen a Disney movie, yet she told me today that for her 6th birthday she wants a Cinderella shirt and an Elsa costume - both characters she has never actually seen on screen. Her friends at school all talk about it though and recount fantastic stories. I hear from people saying that we will raise a kid who is out of the loop, so she won't be able to relate and will be an outcast if we don't keep her up to date with all the trends like her peers. At a certain point as a parent, it's kind of like, it doesn't really matter what we do.
- JabavuAdams 11y ago
  You really have to experience this to fully appreciate it. Social contagion is real.
  - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
    As a developer, I do my best to engineer it into my product.
    - JabavuAdams 11y ago
      How could you shore up human weakness, instead of exploiting it? A question I've been asking myself...
      - Jtsummers 11y ago
        You can exploit the weakness to help people in another way. How many of us grew up and mastered arithmetic with Math Blaster or similar? Gasification works and exploits a human weakness. Incorporating it into a game like many mobile games (FarmVille) just wastes people's time and encourages them to spend money on meaningless tokens and trinkets that will literally disappear at some point (as opposed to the still silly and useless trinkets you might get from an arcade prize shop, but at least those you can keep). Incorporating it into something more useful (or at least with a more valuable output) is a good start.
      - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
        The problem is that our weaknesses are also our strengths, just in different contexts. Efficient heuristic formation is an amazing strength in many contexts, but it's also the same system that leads to racism, stereotyping etc... I have come to the conclusion that you really can't "shore up" human weaknesses without chemical changes or maybe some kind of tDCS type system. Even then, there seem to be some major tradeoffs. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_stimulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_st...
- chetanahuja 11y ago
  "At a certain point as a parent, it's kind of like, it doesn't really matter what we do." Congratulations. You've discovered the true essence of parenting ;-)
  - AndrewKemendo 11y ago
    Not sure if you're being fun or patronizing, but I'll assume the former in good faith. Regardless, this is a highly contrarian position. In fact a recent article [1] comes to the same conclusion, as well as how controversial said conclusion is. [1]http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter-and-why-most-social-science-research-is-probably-wrong/ http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter...
    - chetanahuja 11y ago
      I'm being partly facetious, but only partly. I've thought the same thing to myself so many times about my kids too ;-)
- anon4 11y ago
  You could think of it like, once Disney has permeated our culture to such a degree, people would collectively decide they don't deserve to own them and their kids and erode copyright. The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 11y ago
    The problem is not that Disney can own entertainment products they create. The problem is our society elevating base entertainment to the level of cultural artifact. Disney has no power if people don't treat their disposable trinkets like sacred totems. The post near the top about spoilers is a good example. We're all supposed go out of our way go protect the sanctified experience of the movie for true believers. How messed up is that?
- theandrewbailey 11y ago
  One of my friends has had enough with little girls talking about Frozen. If I'm describing something with that word (as in, describing the icy nature of something), he will scream "ELSA IS THE DEVIL'S WHORRREEEE!". This behavior is well known among our friends and has been exploited countless times.
  - dagw 11y ago
    Meh. Just wait until they discover Minecraft. Frozen is low alcohol beer compared to the pure uncut heroin that Mojang spawned.
    - theandrewbailey 11y ago
      He's been exposed. He's more annoyed over the kids fawning over a (who seems to him) an obviously destructive character. As an alternative, he follows the Elsa line with "Hans is the true king of Arendell", because of his charity during crisis. I didn't know who he was; for all I know, he deserved what he got. Then I watched the movie, and he deserved what he got. Neither of us like the movie that much, because it's monarchist.
- zappo2938 11y ago
  Disney films are based on Joseph Campbell's comparative mythology. After the success of Lucas using one of Campbell's plots in A New Hope and Raiders of the Lost Arc, Disney decided to use this plot for all of their movies. [1] It isn't science, but it enormously compelling and effective. Why wouldn't you want your daughter to be like Elsa? Of all the role models throughout history for little girls, Elsa is without doubt one of the best. It is only recently that women weren't portrayed a submissive needing to marry the right man to be successful. Or, Belle? Beauty and the Beast is story about the inventor's daughter, a bibliophile, who is isolated because she can't relate to her bland vanilla society that rejects intellectuals like Belle and her father. I wouldn't write off Disney so quickly. It's worth reading the Power of Myth, the transcript of the interview between Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell, because you might appreciate the thinking behind Disney movies. You will find that there are people in control at Disney who share your values. I can't pass judgement on parenting. However, there is a big difference allowing children to watch a Disney movie once a month or even once a week and letting children watch television 4 hours a day after school. [1] http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm
pen2l 11y ago
Are we really "raising our kids to be consumers"? I mean, you have to really go out of your way to not make them consumers. I don't even know how it's possible. I recall you have a daughter -- does she not go on and on with the 'let it go' song? When she goes to a store does she not by her own accord beg you to buy her Elsa and Anna themed toys? If not, what are you doing as a parent to not make them consumers? Lots would like to know!
- mixmastamyk 11y ago
  I'm not anti-disney really, we let ours watch Mary Poppins and Frozen a few times. But it isn't really hard, you just get rid of the TV (best thing you can do, commercials are a cancer) and focus instead on books and (real) music in the evenings. The Peanuts Christmas album (vince guaraldi trio) is wonderful this time of year.

shmerl 11y ago

> There's something about a corporation controlling, optimizing, monetizing, and branding dominant components of a childhood that just doesn't seem right. And especially such one as Disney...

fennecfoxen 11y ago

It's a little self-limiting in the end, at least. The more Disney throws recycled characters in our face as part of a bland franchise-entertainment product, the more compelling real original work will become, and the more likely they are to ruin the childhood magic. I also find hope in recent developments overseas, and anticipate the impact of works such as Puella Magi Madoka Magica on the future of children's television here in the US as well.

orionblastar 11y ago
Disney got started by recycling fairy tales with happy endings instead of sad endings the original books had. Marvel, Star Wars, etc got recycled as well. Marvel got an all brand new universe after destroying Earth-616 and the Ultimate universe to make Secret Wars, and then after Secret Wars they changed things up in the comic books. Star Wars they basically rewrote Episode 4 A New Hope as Episode 7 The Force Awakens by changing the character names and roles. All of this is focused on the young that didn't watch or read the original materials. Disney is youth focused, so us older people in our childhood we had things different in Marvel and Star Wars, and under Disney they have been recycled and changed for a global market now instead of just the USA, etc. There was a time when the Disney Channel was stealing ideas from Nickelodeon for shows with teens/tweens. But now owning Marvel and Star Wars they can make shows based on those characters on their own channel without having to steal ideas from others.
angersock 11y ago
Puella Magi Madoka Magica is most certainly not children's television. ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼
- 14111411 11y ago
  What about bokurano? There are at least 15 children there! It must be good for them!
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  It most certainly is! Maybe not little children, but have you seen the marketing on that thing? The main character is 14, but it will easily pick up the whole 8-to-16 set with that, especially if some 13-year-old watching it in middle school has a little sister who looks up to her and they watch shows together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTeM68aOpMM&t=30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTeM68aOpMM&t=30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CTHwEZK2JA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CTHwEZK2JA Or the Madoka-inspired Yuki Yuna Is a Hero, which doubles down on the happy fun times (investing a full five episodes instead of Madoka's two-and-a-half): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ljIjdf0Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ljIjdf0Vg More importantly, even if American audiences shouldn't expect such overtly dark shows in front of small children any time soon, creators are definitely paying attention, and Madoka is exactly the sort of phenomenon which gets creators of all sorts thinking about how to up their game and make something that's meaningful (dark or otherwise). Everybody wins.

gilgoomesh 11y ago

The things Disney are buying were always controlled, monetized and branded. Lucasfilm, Pixar and Marvel were not little community driven charities.

caseysoftware 11y ago
I saw The Force Awakens at Alamo Drafthouse and they had little montages of some of the marketing and merchandising that went on throughout the original trilogy. Toys, breakfast cereals, even a C3-PO and RS-D2 anti-smoking commercial. Space Balls even made fun of it! Anyone who thinks Star Wars wasn't super-monetized on Day One isn't old enough to remember it.
- wavefunction 11y ago
  Star Wars invented and perfected the tie-in. That was George Lucas' real and major contribution to movies as a business.

roywiggins 11y ago

Apart from the monopolization, is it at all new? ex: Lego. Lego is not produced by artisan plasticsmiths down the street, they're a big company.

Wingman4l7 11y ago
Well, before their patent expired, it seemed that they were less focused on getting exclusive trademark rights for movie-franchise-branded brick sets.
- knughit 11y ago
  Lego sells both general bricks and licensed IP characters. Guess which 90% of their consumers prefer?

rdtsc 11y ago

Yap, there is no other place to see this better than going to Disney World. That place is super-optimized for maximum throughtput of people, maximum magic to capture children's imagination, good service, friendly atmosphere, and maximum extraction of your money. Even in supposedly a recession, the place was packed with people. With my kid, most characters and shows they like, are owned by Disney. We were going through the list recently and there was a handful only that were not Disney owned. Disney owns the childhood, that not a joke.