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I've not yet read 'Atlas Shrugged' or 'The Fountainhead', and feel I shouldn't comment until I do. However, my anecdotal experience is that there is an associa

I've not yet read 'Atlas Shrugged' or 'The Fountainhead', and feel I shouldn't comment until I do. However, my anecdotal experience is that there is an association between people who have read Rand and people who are isolationist, individualist, and, uh, unpleasant. I have wondered about the mindset, about whether it's the book that develops the mindset, or the mindset that finds the book, and about whether books might help develop a different mindset. As a person who devoured the Lord of the Rings trilogy as a teenager, I always liked this quote: "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." [1] I am hopeful for any social discussion of character. [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Rogers https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Rogers

purephase 11y ago
I have read both and, at the time, it put me in a position of valuing great fantastical deeds done by the folks portrayed, the absolutist nature of objectivism to value the individual over all else really left a bad taste with me. I don't think the mindset finds the book, although it would certainly help in finding the recommendation.
- galtwho 11y ago
  what are you talking about? I understood Rand as if each of us truly focus on our individual needs then the world will be a better place. The world is lot shittier because there are lots of people who seem to think they know what someone else wants.
crdb 11y ago
I think there are a large number of people who have read both books and who keep quiet about it especially in more left-leaning company, due to the rapid reflex-like negative emotional reactions generated by Ayn Rand. This both for self-preservation and out of considerateness (one does not want to make one's friends unhappy), although it is a shame because it precludes any interesting discussion as might be had, for example, over Marx's or Piketty's output. The Fountainhead's strength is the promotion of professional ("artistic") integrity and a warning about the lack of long term happiness one might find in "selling out" for short term advantages (such as social status) versus building long-lasting work. It's also one of the few works to make the case for very strong IP rights. Despite Ayn Rand's association with the modern right wing globally, I know many left-leaning professional artists who loved the work, it is less political than philosophical. Atlas Shrugged is about individual rights, and should be read from the point of view of the time it was written, when millions of Soviets were stuck behind the Iron Curtain and told what to do with their lives. Ayn Rand herself left the Soviet Union and much of her output ("Anthem" is the most obvious) is coloured by the stark contrast between the misery of living there versus the prosperity of her new home - less so the physical aspects, more so the psychological. The key idea of the work - the one that somehow, is rarely talked about - is the idea that the individual is more important than the state in which they are a citizen, that "raison d'Etat", the sacrifice of a few innocents for the "many", is not morally valid philosophically and ends in disaster for the "many" in practice. And it is a shame the work is so shunned in today's American political discussions (beyond being used by a few Tea Party politicians to promote small government) as it is very much relevant to many modern discussions such as, for example, the NSA scandals, drone use or the existence of the Guantanamo prison. Regarding the title itself and a popular criticism of the work, there are many countries today where it is still the case that people with potential are unable to make any progress and should absolutely emigrate (e.g. [1]). I recommend following Atlas Shrugged by Vito Tanzi's excellent chronicle of the collapse of Argentina since the Peronists [2], it's short and an almost direct real world parallel. Something I always wondered about is why Atlas Shrugged was only very recently translated into French. I read another book [3] by an anonymous but clearly French intelligence services officer who claims it was done deliberately as the work (much like Frederick the Great's Political Testament) is considered politically destabilising by the French authorities, who put pressure on editors accordingly. I suspect a more realistic explanation might be that the political environment in France is such that there would be little demand for the work, which would be derided as "typically American" even by the "liberals"; this makes me a little sad. Ayn Rand's output has a subset of "interesting" fans, as with many other famous works (I'm sure someone, somewhere has made a wooden wand with a horsehair in it and shouts "Accio!" at their kettle or something). No work is perfect but there is much to be learnt from books that became famous and influential. For better or worse, Ayn Rand is the modern, famous writer who most extensively wrote about "extreme" individual rights enforced by the state, as well as advocating well for passion in one's work and pride in one's competence, and as such is worth reading. [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/humans-new-yorks-scientist-arrives-u-s-family-n482186 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/humans-new-yorks-scienti... [2] http://www.amazon.ca/Argentina-Economic-Chronicle-Richest-Countries/dp/0979557607 http://www.amazon.ca/Argentina-Economic-Chronicle-Richest-Co... [3] http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-methodes-techniques-speciales-services/dp/1482745518 http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-methodes-techniques-speciales-...
- pjmorris 11y ago
  Thank you for the detailed response. In my circles that judge books, I'd actually expect more sympathy for Rand than Marx (or Piketty), so I think mileage varies. To me, it seems that what you describe as the 'key idea' of Atlas Shrugged is actually two separate ideas; 'individual is more important than the state', and 'sacrifice of a few innocents for the many is not morally valid'. Leaving the individual aside for the moment, for the second idea, how do you reconcile the reasonable notion of not sacrificing innocents for the many with cases where the many will suffer unfairly (e.g. the Trolley Problem [1]) when it is in your power to act? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
  - crdb 11y ago
    Quick Google gives me: > Ayn Rand's key point: "man does not live in a lifeboat -- in a world in which he must kill innocent men to survive." > She also observes: "Under a dictatorship -- under force -- there is no such thing as morality. Morality ends where a gun begins.... Moral rules cannot be prescribed for these situations [lifeboats or dictatorships], because only life is the basis on which to establish a moral code." http://objectivistanswers.com/questions/1892/what-is-the-objectivist-position-to-moral-dilemmas-like-the-trolley-problem http://objectivistanswers.com/questions/1892/what-is-the-obj...
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - DrScump 11y ago
    In my circles that judge books Do the others in your circles also judge books before reading them?
Animats 11y ago
One should read "Atlas Shrugged". That way, you can avoid seeing the appallingly bad 3-part low budget movie version. The book is preachy, and the movie is faithful to the book, which means long monologues. "The Fountainhead" was made into a movie in 1949. It's a decent movie, and Amazon has the DVD. It's amusing today because the protagonist, who is an architect, designs buildings that he insists are insanely great, but are just slab-sided office blocks. (His hatred of decorative spires has something going for it. There used to be a thing for putting useless pointy spires on top of office buildings, the Chrysler Building and the Empire State Building being the classic examples. That's mostly died out in the US, although it still has a following in Dubai and some Asian cities.) Taking Ayn Rand seriously is not good for you.

purephase 11y ago

I have read both and, at the time, it put me in a position of valuing great fantastical deeds done by the folks portrayed, the absolutist nature of objectivism to value the individual over all else really left a bad taste with me. I don't think the mindset finds the book, although it would certainly help in finding the recommendation.

galtwho 11y ago
what are you talking about? I understood Rand as if each of us truly focus on our individual needs then the world will be a better place. The world is lot shittier because there are lots of people who seem to think they know what someone else wants.

crdb 11y ago

I think there are a large number of people who have read both books and who keep quiet about it especially in more left-leaning company, due to the rapid reflex-like negative emotional reactions generated by Ayn Rand. This both for self-preservation and out of considerateness (one does not want to make one's friends unhappy), although it is a shame because it precludes any interesting discussion as might be had, for example, over Marx's or Piketty's output. The Fountainhead's strength is the promotion of professional ("artistic") integrity and a warning about the lack of long term happiness one might find in "selling out" for short term advantages (such as social status) versus building long-lasting work. It's also one of the few works to make the case for very strong IP rights. Despite Ayn Rand's association with the modern right wing globally, I know many left-leaning professional artists who loved the work, it is less political than philosophical. Atlas Shrugged is about individual rights, and should be read from the point of view of the time it was written, when millions of Soviets were stuck behind the Iron Curtain and told what to do with their lives. Ayn Rand herself left the Soviet Union and much of her output ("Anthem" is the most obvious) is coloured by the stark contrast between the misery of living there versus the prosperity of her new home - less so the physical aspects, more so the psychological. The key idea of the work - the one that somehow, is rarely talked about - is the idea that the individual is more important than the state in which they are a citizen, that "raison d'Etat", the sacrifice of a few innocents for the "many", is not morally valid philosophically and ends in disaster for the "many" in practice. And it is a shame the work is so shunned in today's American political discussions (beyond being used by a few Tea Party politicians to promote small government) as it is very much relevant to many modern discussions such as, for example, the NSA scandals, drone use or the existence of the Guantanamo prison. Regarding the title itself and a popular criticism of the work, there are many countries today where it is still the case that people with potential are unable to make any progress and should absolutely emigrate (e.g. [1]). I recommend following Atlas Shrugged by Vito Tanzi's excellent chronicle of the collapse of Argentina since the Peronists [2], it's short and an almost direct real world parallel. Something I always wondered about is why Atlas Shrugged was only very recently translated into French. I read another book [3] by an anonymous but clearly French intelligence services officer who claims it was done deliberately as the work (much like Frederick the Great's Political Testament) is considered politically destabilising by the French authorities, who put pressure on editors accordingly. I suspect a more realistic explanation might be that the political environment in France is such that there would be little demand for the work, which would be derided as "typically American" even by the "liberals"; this makes me a little sad. Ayn Rand's output has a subset of "interesting" fans, as with many other famous works (I'm sure someone, somewhere has made a wooden wand with a horsehair in it and shouts "Accio!" at their kettle or something). No work is perfect but there is much to be learnt from books that became famous and influential. For better or worse, Ayn Rand is the modern, famous writer who most extensively wrote about "extreme" individual rights enforced by the state, as well as advocating well for passion in one's work and pride in one's competence, and as such is worth reading. [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/humans-new-yorks-scientist-arrives-u-s-family-n482186 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/humans-new-yorks-scienti... [2] http://www.amazon.ca/Argentina-Economic-Chronicle-Richest-Countries/dp/0979557607 http://www.amazon.ca/Argentina-Economic-Chronicle-Richest-Co... [3] http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-methodes-techniques-speciales-services/dp/1482745518 http://www.amazon.fr/Missions-methodes-techniques-speciales-...

pjmorris 11y ago
Thank you for the detailed response. In my circles that judge books, I'd actually expect more sympathy for Rand than Marx (or Piketty), so I think mileage varies. To me, it seems that what you describe as the 'key idea' of Atlas Shrugged is actually two separate ideas; 'individual is more important than the state', and 'sacrifice of a few innocents for the many is not morally valid'. Leaving the individual aside for the moment, for the second idea, how do you reconcile the reasonable notion of not sacrificing innocents for the many with cases where the many will suffer unfairly (e.g. the Trolley Problem [1]) when it is in your power to act? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
- crdb 11y ago
  Quick Google gives me: > Ayn Rand's key point: "man does not live in a lifeboat -- in a world in which he must kill innocent men to survive." > She also observes: "Under a dictatorship -- under force -- there is no such thing as morality. Morality ends where a gun begins.... Moral rules cannot be prescribed for these situations [lifeboats or dictatorships], because only life is the basis on which to establish a moral code." http://objectivistanswers.com/questions/1892/what-is-the-objectivist-position-to-moral-dilemmas-like-the-trolley-problem http://objectivistanswers.com/questions/1892/what-is-the-obj...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- DrScump 11y ago
  In my circles that judge books Do the others in your circles also judge books before reading them?

Animats 11y ago

One should read "Atlas Shrugged". That way, you can avoid seeing the appallingly bad 3-part low budget movie version. The book is preachy, and the movie is faithful to the book, which means long monologues. "The Fountainhead" was made into a movie in 1949. It's a decent movie, and Amazon has the DVD. It's amusing today because the protagonist, who is an architect, designs buildings that he insists are insanely great, but are just slab-sided office blocks. (His hatred of decorative spires has something going for it. There used to be a thing for putting useless pointy spires on top of office buildings, the Chrysler Building and the Empire State Building being the classic examples. That's mostly died out in the US, although it still has a following in Dubai and some Asian cities.) Taking Ayn Rand seriously is not good for you.