8 ms·

> if there are more opportunities and better pay? Frequently there aren't. The subject of this article is an artist, so cue your STEM lord "do you want fries

by munin 11y ago

> if there are more opportunities and better pay? Frequently there aren't. The subject of this article is an artist, so cue your STEM lord "do you want fries with that" jokes now. However, this can occur even in fields like math and computer science. You graduate with a PhD in math and a specialization in topology. Who will hire you to do that? No-one. Plenty of people will hire you to do something you can do, but what if you really want to continue research in your specialty? I'm working on a PhD in CS with a specialization in programming languages. Google came to do a PhD recruitment day and essentially asked "so what kind of PhD are you getting, machine learning or systems?" and we said "programming languages" and the reply was "wow what is that?" So if you want to work in your own specialty, you might need to work in academia.

EliRivers 11y ago
so cue your STEM lord... The term is now "STEM Master Race" :)
g8gggu89 11y ago
What are you doing with programming languages exactly??
- jonsterling 11y ago
  Presumably working on their syntax and semantics. PL is a pretty broad field that encompasses proof theory, formal logic, language design, compiler design, etc.
- munin 11y ago
  Formal methods and verification, analysis, compiler technology, type systems, concurrency, and education. Why?
jonsterling 11y ago
Well put.
throwaway999888 11y ago
> I'm working on a PhD in CS with a specialization in programming languages. Google came to do a PhD recruitment day and essentially asked "so what kind of PhD are you getting, machine learning or systems?" and we said "programming languages" and the reply was "wow what is that?" This explains Go. :-)
- 762236 11y ago
  Is it me, or is there quite a delta between theoretical language specialists, and engineers that work with languages day to day (and thus who use it as a form of socialization with their peers, with all of the cognitive/psychological/epistemological fallout of this). Go-lang comes from people with experience developing systems in collaborative teams.
  - Avshalom 11y ago
    Go also comes from people who have been comfortably ensconced in research labs for their entire lives... which --if you've ever had to deal with the "completely reasonable" jury rigging found in every research lab ever-- explains a lot about why the authors think it's reasonable to expect the every user to re-write the same boiler plate crap until the end of time rather than just bite the bullet and write a more complicated compiler/OS/program.
    - throwaway999888 11y ago
      There's not much difference between an academic language designer being a sourpuss that his ideas/language is not appreciated outside of his circle, and Rob Pike being a sourpuss that "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant"[1]. When you think about it. [1] http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf
dataminded 11y ago
How about teaching K-12? Plenty of districts are experiencing teacher shortages.
- munin 11y ago
  I've investigated that. Two problems: 1. Your PhD is not a credential that will get you a K-12 teaching job. You need a certificate that usually accompanies a Masters program in K-12 education. That's right, it's back to grad school to earn a MA alongside your PhD 2. The pay is bad. Really, really bad. And the places where teachers are needed is not where you want to live (or where anyone wants to live) and the conditions are not "ideal" and absolutely no one wants you there: not the other teachers, not the administration, not the community, not the parents, and not the students
  - Turing_Machine 11y ago
    "The pay is bad. Really, really bad." No, it isn't, or at least not everywhere. At one time teacher salaries were, in fact horrible. Now they mostly range from "meh" to "pretty good". They vary a lot from state to state, and from district to district within states. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/15/how-much-teachers-get-paid-state-by-state/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/... By comparison, the median income for a person with any bachelor's degree is about $50,000. Most of the teacher salaries shown are right in that neighborhood. Teacher salaries do tend to be lower in places like (say) Mississippi than (say) California, but living in Mississippi is also a lot cheaper than living in California.
    - munin 11y ago
      > By comparison, the median income for a person with any bachelor's degree is about $50,000 Yes, but if you have a PhD, in a field like CS (which is what we were talking about), these numbers are crazy. Why would I take a job teaching Trigonometry in rural Spotsylvania county (which Google wants to spell check to Transylvania and let me tell you, it is not that wrong) making $50k a year when I could be living in not-rural-the-South making five times that writing Javascript for whoever? The suggestion of K-12 ed is so close to "adjunct" that it might as well be the same. The GP suggestion of doing K-12 ed with a PhD is still off the mark because you don't get a PhD because you want to lecture - you get it because you want to do research. The "teaching" that most PhDs value is mentoring junior researchers - you don't do this as an undergraduate lecturer, and you especially don't do this as an underpaid babysitter.

by munin 11y ago

EliRivers 11y ago

so cue your STEM lord... The term is now "STEM Master Race" :)

g8gggu89 11y ago

What are you doing with programming languages exactly??

jonsterling 11y ago
Presumably working on their syntax and semantics. PL is a pretty broad field that encompasses proof theory, formal logic, language design, compiler design, etc.
munin 11y ago
Formal methods and verification, analysis, compiler technology, type systems, concurrency, and education. Why?

jonsterling 11y ago

Well put.

throwaway999888 11y ago

> I'm working on a PhD in CS with a specialization in programming languages. Google came to do a PhD recruitment day and essentially asked "so what kind of PhD are you getting, machine learning or systems?" and we said "programming languages" and the reply was "wow what is that?" This explains Go. :-)

762236 11y ago
Is it me, or is there quite a delta between theoretical language specialists, and engineers that work with languages day to day (and thus who use it as a form of socialization with their peers, with all of the cognitive/psychological/epistemological fallout of this). Go-lang comes from people with experience developing systems in collaborative teams.
- Avshalom 11y ago
  Go also comes from people who have been comfortably ensconced in research labs for their entire lives... which --if you've ever had to deal with the "completely reasonable" jury rigging found in every research lab ever-- explains a lot about why the authors think it's reasonable to expect the every user to re-write the same boiler plate crap until the end of time rather than just bite the bullet and write a more complicated compiler/OS/program.
  - throwaway999888 11y ago
    There's not much difference between an academic language designer being a sourpuss that his ideas/language is not appreciated outside of his circle, and Rob Pike being a sourpuss that "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant"[1]. When you think about it. [1] http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf

dataminded 11y ago

How about teaching K-12? Plenty of districts are experiencing teacher shortages.

munin 11y ago
I've investigated that. Two problems: 1. Your PhD is not a credential that will get you a K-12 teaching job. You need a certificate that usually accompanies a Masters program in K-12 education. That's right, it's back to grad school to earn a MA alongside your PhD 2. The pay is bad. Really, really bad. And the places where teachers are needed is not where you want to live (or where anyone wants to live) and the conditions are not "ideal" and absolutely no one wants you there: not the other teachers, not the administration, not the community, not the parents, and not the students
- Turing_Machine 11y ago
  "The pay is bad. Really, really bad." No, it isn't, or at least not everywhere. At one time teacher salaries were, in fact horrible. Now they mostly range from "meh" to "pretty good". They vary a lot from state to state, and from district to district within states. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/15/how-much-teachers-get-paid-state-by-state/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/... By comparison, the median income for a person with any bachelor's degree is about $50,000. Most of the teacher salaries shown are right in that neighborhood. Teacher salaries do tend to be lower in places like (say) Mississippi than (say) California, but living in Mississippi is also a lot cheaper than living in California.
  - munin 11y ago
    > By comparison, the median income for a person with any bachelor's degree is about $50,000 Yes, but if you have a PhD, in a field like CS (which is what we were talking about), these numbers are crazy. Why would I take a job teaching Trigonometry in rural Spotsylvania county (which Google wants to spell check to Transylvania and let me tell you, it is not that wrong) making $50k a year when I could be living in not-rural-the-South making five times that writing Javascript for whoever? The suggestion of K-12 ed is so close to "adjunct" that it might as well be the same. The GP suggestion of doing K-12 ed with a PhD is still off the mark because you don't get a PhD because you want to lecture - you get it because you want to do research. The "teaching" that most PhDs value is mentoring junior researchers - you don't do this as an undergraduate lecturer, and you especially don't do this as an underpaid babysitter.