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I was turned on to small batch chocolate by Dandelion in SF. Their bars are $8 and the Madagascar and Tanzania really taste incredible. Will somebody neutral bu

by gkop 11y ago

I was turned on to small batch chocolate by Dandelion in SF. Their bars are $8 and the Madagascar and Tanzania really taste incredible. Will somebody neutral but in the know confirm Dandelion is the real deal? Side note: Have we at a meta level concluded that self-identified "small batch" and "artisanal" products sold at farmers markets in hipsterish packaging are very highly correlated with "young people that don't really know what they are doing (are relatively inexperienced), but are good at marketing and charging a high price"?

ajessup 11y ago
I can't claim any depth in chocolate appreciation, but can vouch for the integrity of the founders of Dandelion. More than one of them had been saving to start the business for well over a decade, and started it out of the love of craftsmanship rather than any particular desire to sell at scale. And I agree, their bars are spectacular.
dogma1138 11y ago
I would go to bet that most "hipster" brands whether it's beer, coffee, or w/e are pretty much 99% marketing this is how business works. You can see this in wine tasting allot of the big name wines expensive wines do not score well in blind wine tastings however in non blind tastings when people are sold on the story they score remarkably well. When you spend 200$ on a bottle of wine, 15$ on a bar of chocolate and 20$ on 8 oz. of coffee beans you'll be damn sure to like them even if they are nothing but average at best. There is a reason why every "artisan" product comes with a nifty far fetched story tied to it as that's what you are buying at the end.
- userbinator 11y ago
  Audiophile equipment also follows the same trend. The reluctance to double-blind testing is a common sign that it isn't actually better, just more expensive.
  - Turing_Machine 11y ago
    Yes. Witness the "audiophiles" who claim that wooden knobs somehow cause the sound to be better. One outfit was selling these magical knobs for five hundred bucks or so.
    - codeka 11y ago
      I always thought those websites were jokes, right? Right...?
      - Turing_Machine 11y ago
        I think that one was real, actually.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
        Sadly, no. Before the web, they were (probably still are) being advertised in magazines.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    I've probably posted this here before, but I actually found the reviews of audiophile equipment and wine to be almost identical. <anecdote> A few years ago I sent one of the first bottles of wine I ever made (a Barolo, still quite young) to a friend of mine with a comment to the effect that "it's not bad, but it has an aftertaste of asphalt. Probably needs to be aged more." He replied with a link to a review of an expensive Barolo that indicated "hints of tar." But my major takeaway from that review was how it sounded exactly like the high-end audio reviews I used to read." Substitute the word "amplifier" for "wine" and you'd never know the difference. </anecdote> BTW: I kept a few bottles of that batch and after five years, it was delicious. Five years was all the willpower I had :-(
- steveax 11y ago
  Then there's the phenomena that paying more for a product actually increases the enjoyment one gets from it. [1]: http://www.caltech.edu/news/wine-study-shows-price-influences-perception-1374 http://www.caltech.edu/news/wine-study-shows-price-influence...
  - mdholloway 11y ago
    By the same token, my layman's understanding is that you can kill demand for a very good product or service by pricing it too low (and thereby signaling inferior quality to the customer).
scotty79 11y ago
> Their bars are $8 and the Madagascar and Tanzania really taste incredible. > ... > Will somebody neutral but in the know confirm Dandelion is the real deal? Your beliefs about what you consume can affect your taste and what pleasure you draw from consumption. Since the belief is part of what causes your positive experiences, why would you risk loosing that belief by asking people about things that may destroy it? Or is it already destroyed, those chocolates no longer taste that good, and you are hoping to regain the belief? If latter is the case then, yes, I can assure you with my whole authority and complete independence from Dandelion in SF that their chocolate is the real deal.
- gkop 11y ago
  Well Dandelion makes chocolate in their shop which is open to the public, and it actually does taste different (better) than any other chocolate I've ever tried, so I already perceived them to be rather legit; the risk of vaporizing my illusion seemed a priori less than the reward of potentially confirming my hope. Also while I'm sure that I am blind to lots of things as a consumer, I definitely still enjoy products with sketchy marketing but whose quality I like (Bulleit Rye is a great example).
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    That's part of the experience you are buying there's nothing wrong with it, there are tons of very subtle things that can make food taste better from how it's presented to who made it (whether it's your mother, S/O of a famous chef). Those attributes however very rarely survive blind tasting. Making chocolate in small batches doesn't have anything to do directly with making a better chocolate bar. There are plenty of very large scale chocolate manufacturers that produce premium products and they have a much better process of ensuring the consistency and quality of their products than a small batch manufacturer, unlike small boutiques they also have the resources and the science to be able to tailor the taste to specific pallets much more consistently. Going to a chocolate boutique however and buying expensive bars is an experience on it's own which most likely has just as much impact on the final tasting experience as the manufacturing process it self.
jclulow 11y ago
> Side note: Have we at a meta level concluded that self-identified "small batch" and "artisanal" products sold at farmers markets in hipsterish packaging are very highly correlated with "young people that don't really know what they are doing (are relatively inexperienced), but are good at marketing and charging a high price"? It certainly seems to happen a lot in software; I cannot imagine it's any different in chocolate or coffee or anything else.
josephlau 11y ago
Not a huge chcolate fan but I know the founders and can vouch for their integrity. They were both Plaxo founders who really loved chocolate and started Dandelion out of a passion after they sold Plaxo. I also saw them do a chocolate tech talk at Google VERY early on (before they had their factory on Valencia) and they thoroughly discussed a lot of the janky homemade machinery they used for each part of the process and how they made their chocolate. They also showed pictures of them visiting different cocoa farms and talked about how they picked beans and formed relationships with the farmers. Definitely the real deal from what I know.
fredophile 11y ago
They're the real deal. If you go to their main store on Valencia you can see where they make the chocolate. It's the big open space that's directly behind the counter you order at. They regularly offer tours where you get a chance to see all of the steps involved. I took one of their tours a few years ago and we were even able to try the unroasted cocoa beans. Unfortunately, because they buy and process relatively small batches of beans you might not be able to get more of a bar you really enjoy. Even if you see one with the same origin as a bar you've had before it might not be exactly the same since different batches may use different roasting parameters.
ramatevish 11y ago
A friend of mine works for Dandelion under the person who handles sourcing their chocolate - we've talked once or twice about this in particular. I can't assure you it's the real deal, but I would buy their chocolate with a very high confidence that it's what it proclaims to be.

by gkop 11y ago

ajessup 11y ago

I can't claim any depth in chocolate appreciation, but can vouch for the integrity of the founders of Dandelion. More than one of them had been saving to start the business for well over a decade, and started it out of the love of craftsmanship rather than any particular desire to sell at scale. And I agree, their bars are spectacular.

dogma1138 11y ago

I would go to bet that most "hipster" brands whether it's beer, coffee, or w/e are pretty much 99% marketing this is how business works. You can see this in wine tasting allot of the big name wines expensive wines do not score well in blind wine tastings however in non blind tastings when people are sold on the story they score remarkably well. When you spend 200$ on a bottle of wine, 15$ on a bar of chocolate and 20$ on 8 oz. of coffee beans you'll be damn sure to like them even if they are nothing but average at best. There is a reason why every "artisan" product comes with a nifty far fetched story tied to it as that's what you are buying at the end.

userbinator 11y ago
Audiophile equipment also follows the same trend. The reluctance to double-blind testing is a common sign that it isn't actually better, just more expensive.
- Turing_Machine 11y ago
  Yes. Witness the "audiophiles" who claim that wooden knobs somehow cause the sound to be better. One outfit was selling these magical knobs for five hundred bucks or so.
  - codeka 11y ago
    I always thought those websites were jokes, right? Right...?
    - Turing_Machine 11y ago
      I think that one was real, actually.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
      Sadly, no. Before the web, they were (probably still are) being advertised in magazines.
- HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
  I've probably posted this here before, but I actually found the reviews of audiophile equipment and wine to be almost identical. <anecdote> A few years ago I sent one of the first bottles of wine I ever made (a Barolo, still quite young) to a friend of mine with a comment to the effect that "it's not bad, but it has an aftertaste of asphalt. Probably needs to be aged more." He replied with a link to a review of an expensive Barolo that indicated "hints of tar." But my major takeaway from that review was how it sounded exactly like the high-end audio reviews I used to read." Substitute the word "amplifier" for "wine" and you'd never know the difference. </anecdote> BTW: I kept a few bottles of that batch and after five years, it was delicious. Five years was all the willpower I had :-(
steveax 11y ago
Then there's the phenomena that paying more for a product actually increases the enjoyment one gets from it. [1]: http://www.caltech.edu/news/wine-study-shows-price-influences-perception-1374 http://www.caltech.edu/news/wine-study-shows-price-influence...
- mdholloway 11y ago
  By the same token, my layman's understanding is that you can kill demand for a very good product or service by pricing it too low (and thereby signaling inferior quality to the customer).

scotty79 11y ago

> Their bars are $8 and the Madagascar and Tanzania really taste incredible. > ... > Will somebody neutral but in the know confirm Dandelion is the real deal? Your beliefs about what you consume can affect your taste and what pleasure you draw from consumption. Since the belief is part of what causes your positive experiences, why would you risk loosing that belief by asking people about things that may destroy it? Or is it already destroyed, those chocolates no longer taste that good, and you are hoping to regain the belief? If latter is the case then, yes, I can assure you with my whole authority and complete independence from Dandelion in SF that their chocolate is the real deal.

gkop 11y ago
Well Dandelion makes chocolate in their shop which is open to the public, and it actually does taste different (better) than any other chocolate I've ever tried, so I already perceived them to be rather legit; the risk of vaporizing my illusion seemed a priori less than the reward of potentially confirming my hope. Also while I'm sure that I am blind to lots of things as a consumer, I definitely still enjoy products with sketchy marketing but whose quality I like (Bulleit Rye is a great example).
- dogma1138 11y ago
  That's part of the experience you are buying there's nothing wrong with it, there are tons of very subtle things that can make food taste better from how it's presented to who made it (whether it's your mother, S/O of a famous chef). Those attributes however very rarely survive blind tasting. Making chocolate in small batches doesn't have anything to do directly with making a better chocolate bar. There are plenty of very large scale chocolate manufacturers that produce premium products and they have a much better process of ensuring the consistency and quality of their products than a small batch manufacturer, unlike small boutiques they also have the resources and the science to be able to tailor the taste to specific pallets much more consistently. Going to a chocolate boutique however and buying expensive bars is an experience on it's own which most likely has just as much impact on the final tasting experience as the manufacturing process it self.

jclulow 11y ago

> Side note: Have we at a meta level concluded that self-identified "small batch" and "artisanal" products sold at farmers markets in hipsterish packaging are very highly correlated with "young people that don't really know what they are doing (are relatively inexperienced), but are good at marketing and charging a high price"? It certainly seems to happen a lot in software; I cannot imagine it's any different in chocolate or coffee or anything else.

josephlau 11y ago

Not a huge chcolate fan but I know the founders and can vouch for their integrity. They were both Plaxo founders who really loved chocolate and started Dandelion out of a passion after they sold Plaxo. I also saw them do a chocolate tech talk at Google VERY early on (before they had their factory on Valencia) and they thoroughly discussed a lot of the janky homemade machinery they used for each part of the process and how they made their chocolate. They also showed pictures of them visiting different cocoa farms and talked about how they picked beans and formed relationships with the farmers. Definitely the real deal from what I know.

fredophile 11y ago

They're the real deal. If you go to their main store on Valencia you can see where they make the chocolate. It's the big open space that's directly behind the counter you order at. They regularly offer tours where you get a chance to see all of the steps involved. I took one of their tours a few years ago and we were even able to try the unroasted cocoa beans. Unfortunately, because they buy and process relatively small batches of beans you might not be able to get more of a bar you really enjoy. Even if you see one with the same origin as a bar you've had before it might not be exactly the same since different batches may use different roasting parameters.

ramatevish 11y ago

A friend of mine works for Dandelion under the person who handles sourcing their chocolate - we've talked once or twice about this in particular. I can't assure you it's the real deal, but I would buy their chocolate with a very high confidence that it's what it proclaims to be.