4 ms·

> Using a non-registered and non-inspected device to measure for trade? That's a paddlin'. I wonder if that isn't the best way to approach all this. Not just

> Using a non-registered and non-inspected device to measure for trade? That's a paddlin'. I wonder if that isn't the best way to approach all this. Not just for Comcast but any carrier that meters stuff out; mobile phone data, mobile phone minutes, etc. If you want to claim I get X amount, prove it! Now that you mention it, I can't help but wonder why Starbucks doesn't have to "prove" that its 12oz latte really is 12oz. Is it because I have the right to immediately measure it and complain? I don't know much about this aspect of the law.

mindslight 11y ago
I'd imagine it's fundamentally because restaurants don't actually use a precision measurement device to dole out drinks. If you saw the cup was low you could complain, and if they used fraudulent cups that said 12oz but were really 11oz, then that would presumably pretty easy to prove (since the now-wise customer would have a cup). I'd expect state laws to be pretty specific about what types of measurements are regulated, but data usage seems like it would conceptually fit given the opaque and after-the-fact nature of its reporting. Phone companies have been keeping call records forever, and even printing them line-by-line on paper in the past. The design theory behind IP was kind of to avoid that kind of centralized complexity and its associated overhead, but alas Comcast is hell bent on reimplementing it because decommodification is profitable.
ac29 11y ago
>Now that you mention it, I can't help but wonder why Starbucks doesn't have to "prove" that its 12oz latte really is 12oz. Is it because I have the right to immediately measure it and complain? In a different life, I worked at Starbucks. About once a quarter (per my recollection) we got secret shoppers who, among other things, would actually weigh the drinks they ordered to ensure employees were making them correctly. Bad reports were a pretty big deal, so management tended to take care to respond to any problems quickly. And yes, you could absolutely complain if you ordered a 12 oz latte and received one that was only 3/4 filled. You'd get it remade immediately and probably a coupon for a free drink on your next visit (at least, that was policy at the store I worked at, when I worked there). Things like scales (for weighing purchased coffee beans, as well as internal use) were actually certified by the county department of weights and measures every year.
wolfgke 11y ago
At least in Germany in restaurants glasses have to have a "Füllstrich" for this reason: > https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCllstrich https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCllstrich The "Füllstrich" is a small line at the glass with a number next to it with which you can easily check whether you got the claimed amount.
eli 11y ago
Careful what you wish for. I'd prefer my isp not keep careful records of where my bytes are going and when.
- msandford 11y ago
  They don't have to keep careful records of where and when. They just have to spend a lot of money buying devices which are manufactured and certified by someone other than themselves that they are fit for purpose. If the power company isn't allowed to make their own meters then why should Comcast be allowed to? The moral hazard is pretty substantial.
  - eli 11y ago
    All other things being equal I would prefer my ISP to not even have the equipment in place to determine whether I'm downloading from Spotify or Youtube.
    - mindslight 11y ago
      I agree, but why would you assume they don't already? Transporting bulk bits is a commodity race to the bottom, which is why the idea is so technically successful. Now that there's proven demand, telcom raises profit margins by decommodifying opaque bits into specific value-priced services.
    - msandford 11y ago
      I agree completely. But your power meter doesn't know what device in your house is using electricity, it just knows you're using X amount of electricity. Yes it would be difficult to make a data meter that's intentionally blind to where the packets are going to and from, but it's not as though the data isn't available for intercept a dozen other places on a telco's network. If they want to spy on you and your data is on their network there's little you can do. The point of this independently certified metering device is that it'd be expensive. Hopefully nobody would sell them, only rent them. So if a carrier wants to charge overages they're more than welcome to, but the people supplying the meters are going to get a huge cut of their business. And once a telco is on the receiving end of a racket instead of on the giving end, perhaps they'd change their tune about data caps and spend that money and energy upgrading their network instead of using it to clamp down on their "customers" who have little to no alternatives.

mindslight 11y ago

I'd imagine it's fundamentally because restaurants don't actually use a precision measurement device to dole out drinks. If you saw the cup was low you could complain, and if they used fraudulent cups that said 12oz but were really 11oz, then that would presumably pretty easy to prove (since the now-wise customer would have a cup). I'd expect state laws to be pretty specific about what types of measurements are regulated, but data usage seems like it would conceptually fit given the opaque and after-the-fact nature of its reporting. Phone companies have been keeping call records forever, and even printing them line-by-line on paper in the past. The design theory behind IP was kind of to avoid that kind of centralized complexity and its associated overhead, but alas Comcast is hell bent on reimplementing it because decommodification is profitable.

ac29 11y ago

>Now that you mention it, I can't help but wonder why Starbucks doesn't have to "prove" that its 12oz latte really is 12oz. Is it because I have the right to immediately measure it and complain? In a different life, I worked at Starbucks. About once a quarter (per my recollection) we got secret shoppers who, among other things, would actually weigh the drinks they ordered to ensure employees were making them correctly. Bad reports were a pretty big deal, so management tended to take care to respond to any problems quickly. And yes, you could absolutely complain if you ordered a 12 oz latte and received one that was only 3/4 filled. You'd get it remade immediately and probably a coupon for a free drink on your next visit (at least, that was policy at the store I worked at, when I worked there). Things like scales (for weighing purchased coffee beans, as well as internal use) were actually certified by the county department of weights and measures every year.

wolfgke 11y ago

At least in Germany in restaurants glasses have to have a "Füllstrich" for this reason: > https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCllstrich https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCllstrich The "Füllstrich" is a small line at the glass with a number next to it with which you can easily check whether you got the claimed amount.

eli 11y ago

Careful what you wish for. I'd prefer my isp not keep careful records of where my bytes are going and when.

msandford 11y ago
They don't have to keep careful records of where and when. They just have to spend a lot of money buying devices which are manufactured and certified by someone other than themselves that they are fit for purpose. If the power company isn't allowed to make their own meters then why should Comcast be allowed to? The moral hazard is pretty substantial.
- eli 11y ago
  All other things being equal I would prefer my ISP to not even have the equipment in place to determine whether I'm downloading from Spotify or Youtube.
  - mindslight 11y ago
    I agree, but why would you assume they don't already? Transporting bulk bits is a commodity race to the bottom, which is why the idea is so technically successful. Now that there's proven demand, telcom raises profit margins by decommodifying opaque bits into specific value-priced services.
  - msandford 11y ago
    I agree completely. But your power meter doesn't know what device in your house is using electricity, it just knows you're using X amount of electricity. Yes it would be difficult to make a data meter that's intentionally blind to where the packets are going to and from, but it's not as though the data isn't available for intercept a dozen other places on a telco's network. If they want to spy on you and your data is on their network there's little you can do. The point of this independently certified metering device is that it'd be expensive. Hopefully nobody would sell them, only rent them. So if a carrier wants to charge overages they're more than welcome to, but the people supplying the meters are going to get a huge cut of their business. And once a telco is on the receiving end of a racket instead of on the giving end, perhaps they'd change their tune about data caps and spend that money and energy upgrading their network instead of using it to clamp down on their "customers" who have little to no alternatives.