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> I'd rather be poor today than rich twenty years ago. The most generous restatement of this that I can imagine is, "I'd rather be middle-class today than rich

> I'd rather be poor today than rich twenty years ago. The most generous restatement of this that I can imagine is, "I'd rather be middle-class today than rich twenty years ago." Because poor is poor. Not knowing where you're going to eat next, not knowing where you're going to sleep, not having money for formula or diapers, there's no time where that's good. But even with the generous form, I still disagree. Having a Blu-Ray player and a flat screen today... versus a Laserdisk and a Projector twenty years ago... An Android today... versus a Car Phone back then... A house today... versus 4 homes, one of which is overseas back then... Hell, you can't fly a Concorde today.

vinceguidry 11y ago
> Because poor is poor. Not knowing where you're going to eat next, not knowing where you're going to sleep, not having money for formula or diapers, there's no time where that's good. There are many shades of 'poor-ness'. I'd model them as various forms of insecurity. Poor is not just one thing. The main thing that hurts the most is loss of hope. If you have no hope that things will ever get better, then you'll stop trying to find jobs, you'll stop standing up for yourself, you'll settle for whatever security you can find, be it in the arms of a psychopath or not. With the Internet, you can find out about the larger world. You can talk to people that are not part of your tiny social circle. It's a life raft that you can hold on to. I met this older lady at the bar once who was in a real rough spot, she had a fixed income that she thought was so small that she couldn't afford her own space, and no access to the Internet to look for anything and no ability to do so even if she had, old people are scared of Internet. She was living with several other women in the house of a man who I'd gathered was at least being emotionally if not physically abusive to. He was charging them rent and coercing favors out of them and being controlling. It was all this lady could do to get out of the house once a week. I happened to have my laptop with me, so I asked her what her income was, then went on Craigslist and found her several neighborhoods she could move to that fit all her criteria. The next time I saw her at the bar, she had managed to secure a rental using the information I'd given her. She was a million times happier and effusively grateful for my pointing her in the right direction. What she had told me pissed me off to the point of being willing to consider violence to rectify her situation, but all she really needed was a few minutes on Craigslist to radically transform her life. Never underestimate the value of information. The rest of the tech can jump off a cliff, but you will have to pry the Internet from my cold, dead fingers.
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  The freedom to make choices, and the knowledge of your choices. Sure, you just described a lack of knowledge... But she ALSO had the financial freedom to make the choices she wanted. That's well above "poor" in my mind. You're describing someone who thought they were poor. Sure, yup, some people are there. But many people are ACTUALLY poor - and the claim was that it's better to be ACTUALLY POOR TODAY, than RICH twenty years ago. I don't buy it.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    You're not quite getting my point. Sometimes the difference between being ok and standing on your own feet and being downtrodden boils down to knowledge. You're trying to move the goalposts on what 'poor' means, and you keep having to move them because the Internet makes life so much easier that you have to actually be pretty much homeless before it'll qualify for your definition of 'poor'. People like the lady in my story, when they don't have access to social contact and information, fall prey to psychopaths because they perceive they have no other options. The psychopaths take their money and their dignity and leave nothing left. Then sure, they'll fit your definition of poor. You know what was nice when I was a kid and we were bouncing around from apartment to apartment because my mom kept losing jobs? My Nintendo. My mom won the money to buy it from a radio contest and managed to convince a coworker to sell one to her. It was the only thing I wanted for Christmas that year. Children, at least the ones I grew up with, are awful, status-conscious, hateful things. They're much better now, but there was no love lost between me and my peers growing up. We bemoan the distractification of America, but I gotta tell you, I'm eminently grateful that I could escape those horrible little shits into a brightly colored world where practice and patience earned you reward after reward. I had books, and read the ones I had plenty, but having that Nintendo was just the greatest thing in the world for me. I've seen firsthand how technology curbs violent impulses, raises moods, defuses tense relationships. Distraction from your problems is a real, take-it-to-the-bank luxury when you have no control over your life.
    - VikingCoder 11y ago
      You're not getting my point. YES, ABSOLUTELY, sometimes it boils down to knowledge. But MOST OF THE TIME, it DOESN'T. I'm not moving the goal posts. I said poor, and then you wanted to talk about people who aren't poor, but think they are, and if you educate them, it turns out they're not poor. > They're much better now Dude, not cool. Do you have a paper towel I can use to clean the milk off my screen? You just made me spit all over. And now you're moving the discussion between having KNOWLEDGE, and having TECHNOLOGY. Those are, in fact, different things. And let's just BACK UP. Let's pick that kid with a Nintendo. Which was, of course, more than 20 years ago. Is he really THAT much better off with an XBox One today? And please remember, the target we're discussing is "poor today versus RICH 20 years ago." RICH. As in, if you want it, you buy it. If you need information, you hire people who research it for you. If you are ill, you go to the best doctors in the world. RICH. In 1995. Rich in 1995 ain't too shabby. In fact, I'd say it's much better than poor in 2015.

vinceguidry 11y ago

> Because poor is poor. Not knowing where you're going to eat next, not knowing where you're going to sleep, not having money for formula or diapers, there's no time where that's good. There are many shades of 'poor-ness'. I'd model them as various forms of insecurity. Poor is not just one thing. The main thing that hurts the most is loss of hope. If you have no hope that things will ever get better, then you'll stop trying to find jobs, you'll stop standing up for yourself, you'll settle for whatever security you can find, be it in the arms of a psychopath or not. With the Internet, you can find out about the larger world. You can talk to people that are not part of your tiny social circle. It's a life raft that you can hold on to. I met this older lady at the bar once who was in a real rough spot, she had a fixed income that she thought was so small that she couldn't afford her own space, and no access to the Internet to look for anything and no ability to do so even if she had, old people are scared of Internet. She was living with several other women in the house of a man who I'd gathered was at least being emotionally if not physically abusive to. He was charging them rent and coercing favors out of them and being controlling. It was all this lady could do to get out of the house once a week. I happened to have my laptop with me, so I asked her what her income was, then went on Craigslist and found her several neighborhoods she could move to that fit all her criteria. The next time I saw her at the bar, she had managed to secure a rental using the information I'd given her. She was a million times happier and effusively grateful for my pointing her in the right direction. What she had told me pissed me off to the point of being willing to consider violence to rectify her situation, but all she really needed was a few minutes on Craigslist to radically transform her life. Never underestimate the value of information. The rest of the tech can jump off a cliff, but you will have to pry the Internet from my cold, dead fingers.

VikingCoder 11y ago
The freedom to make choices, and the knowledge of your choices. Sure, you just described a lack of knowledge... But she ALSO had the financial freedom to make the choices she wanted. That's well above "poor" in my mind. You're describing someone who thought they were poor. Sure, yup, some people are there. But many people are ACTUALLY poor - and the claim was that it's better to be ACTUALLY POOR TODAY, than RICH twenty years ago. I don't buy it.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  You're not quite getting my point. Sometimes the difference between being ok and standing on your own feet and being downtrodden boils down to knowledge. You're trying to move the goalposts on what 'poor' means, and you keep having to move them because the Internet makes life so much easier that you have to actually be pretty much homeless before it'll qualify for your definition of 'poor'. People like the lady in my story, when they don't have access to social contact and information, fall prey to psychopaths because they perceive they have no other options. The psychopaths take their money and their dignity and leave nothing left. Then sure, they'll fit your definition of poor. You know what was nice when I was a kid and we were bouncing around from apartment to apartment because my mom kept losing jobs? My Nintendo. My mom won the money to buy it from a radio contest and managed to convince a coworker to sell one to her. It was the only thing I wanted for Christmas that year. Children, at least the ones I grew up with, are awful, status-conscious, hateful things. They're much better now, but there was no love lost between me and my peers growing up. We bemoan the distractification of America, but I gotta tell you, I'm eminently grateful that I could escape those horrible little shits into a brightly colored world where practice and patience earned you reward after reward. I had books, and read the ones I had plenty, but having that Nintendo was just the greatest thing in the world for me. I've seen firsthand how technology curbs violent impulses, raises moods, defuses tense relationships. Distraction from your problems is a real, take-it-to-the-bank luxury when you have no control over your life.
  - VikingCoder 11y ago
    You're not getting my point. YES, ABSOLUTELY, sometimes it boils down to knowledge. But MOST OF THE TIME, it DOESN'T. I'm not moving the goal posts. I said poor, and then you wanted to talk about people who aren't poor, but think they are, and if you educate them, it turns out they're not poor. > They're much better now Dude, not cool. Do you have a paper towel I can use to clean the milk off my screen? You just made me spit all over. And now you're moving the discussion between having KNOWLEDGE, and having TECHNOLOGY. Those are, in fact, different things. And let's just BACK UP. Let's pick that kid with a Nintendo. Which was, of course, more than 20 years ago. Is he really THAT much better off with an XBox One today? And please remember, the target we're discussing is "poor today versus RICH 20 years ago." RICH. As in, if you want it, you buy it. If you need information, you hire people who research it for you. If you are ill, you go to the best doctors in the world. RICH. In 1995. Rich in 1995 ain't too shabby. In fact, I'd say it's much better than poor in 2015.