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This makes me nervous. Ketamine has major issues with bladder damage when taken repetitively. Possibly with a low enough dosage this would be manageable, but

by spotman 11y ago

This makes me nervous. Ketamine has major issues with bladder damage when taken repetitively. Possibly with a low enough dosage this would be manageable, but speaking from experience from watching people that have been on the wrong end of the stick with this one. it can do some really serious long term damage in that department.

DanBC 11y ago
They use a much smaller dose than is used recreationally. Here's someone who was using 15 g per day: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/29811499/k-bladder-the-uks-secret-ketamine-epidemic http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/29811499/k-bladder-the... A therapeutic dose is 5 mg per kg. An average adult would be 80 kg, which gives a dose of 400 mg once every maybe 30 or 60 days.
- bigbugbag 11y ago
  15g per day is a ridiculous amount. Though not the most common ketamine induced bladder damage has been observed to occur in a few months of weekly recreative use of insuflated doses of 1-2g over the weekend. On the other hand some heavy chronic users in the several grams daily range had little to no damage after years of abuse so YMMV.
civilian 11y ago
The depression-fixing threshold is smaller that most recreational use, and it would only be once every two weeks. That side effect trivial to rule it out. Educate yourself and stop being a pawn of the drug war. I watched two documentaries in short succession: Drugs Inc's episode on Ketamine, and a few episodes of Combat Medic. Drug Incs' played up the bladder damage, the persistant dissociative feeling with abusers, and how it's just horse and cat tranquilizer that's no longer used on humans. Combat Medic non-challantly showed medics giving ketamine to US soldiers in Afghanistan, because it's an effective and immediate anesthetic. They were subtle about it, but it was there. Our the dissonance in the media about drugs like this is indicative of fear mongering and propaganda.
- tptacek 11y ago
  This would have been a better comment without the "educate yourself and stop being a pawn of the drug war." Please remain civil.
- spotman 11y ago
  Just want to say, I hear you and in no way am I a fan of the drug war. I should have read more about toxicity levels before commenting. The reason my initial gut felt this way is not due to any documentary or scare tactic it's purely personal experience. I have two close friends that have taken the recreation too far. One now has permanent bladder issues and the other was lucky to get their habit in check in time. So my gut reaction was not very scientific, apologies. I am a huge fan of legalization and science. Let people make their own mistakes and if there is a medical path that helps people I'm all for it! Just hope that this is also part of the discussion ( harm prevention ) because there is some real risks with abuse, that personally I have witnessed first hand. Having said that science over fear for sure, I am a fan of science over fear. I still feel more positive light than negative and am hopeful people use his for good!
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Igglyboo 11y ago
> Ketamine has major issues with bladder damage when taken repetitively. At recreational doses, doctors aren't going to be prescribing anywhere near that.
- llamataboot 11y ago
  There are other similar family drugs that seem less likely to harm the bladder (see MXE and new ketamine analogs) while still having the anti-depressant and neuro-protective effects of ketamine. Jury is still out on how prevalent bladder damage is, and if its caused by ketamine itself. AFAIK, most of the cases where bladder damage have shown up have been reversible and in extremely high dose and chronic ketamine usage. FWIW - doctors are definitely using "recreational" doses in these experiments.
- user_0001 11y ago
  Not recreational dosages. At serious addiction levels yes. It would be like saying having a couple of recreational beers on a Friday causes liver failure. It doesn't. Drinking a bottle of whiskey every day for an extended period of time, perhaps. Same with Ketamine
  - bigbugbag 11y ago
    This is in direct contradiction of the usual consensus among harm reduction practitioners, as explained on erowid: Ketamine and Bladder Health In some cases, chronic ketamine use has been associated with urinary tract symptoms that can include increased frequency of urination, urinary incontinence, pain during urination, passing blood in the urine, and reduced bladder size. In several reported severe cases, surgical intervention to remove the bladder was deemed necessary by clinicians. The wide dose-response range leading to documented cases suggests that individual responses to ketamine may be idiosyncratic and unpredictable, making it unclear what level and frequency of use may lead to urinary problems. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_health.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_health.sh...
    - user_0001 11y ago

by spotman 11y ago

DanBC 11y ago

They use a much smaller dose than is used recreationally. Here's someone who was using 15 g per day: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/29811499/k-bladder-the-uks-secret-ketamine-epidemic http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/29811499/k-bladder-the... A therapeutic dose is 5 mg per kg. An average adult would be 80 kg, which gives a dose of 400 mg once every maybe 30 or 60 days.

bigbugbag 11y ago
15g per day is a ridiculous amount. Though not the most common ketamine induced bladder damage has been observed to occur in a few months of weekly recreative use of insuflated doses of 1-2g over the weekend. On the other hand some heavy chronic users in the several grams daily range had little to no damage after years of abuse so YMMV.

civilian 11y ago

The depression-fixing threshold is smaller that most recreational use, and it would only be once every two weeks. That side effect trivial to rule it out. Educate yourself and stop being a pawn of the drug war. I watched two documentaries in short succession: Drugs Inc's episode on Ketamine, and a few episodes of Combat Medic. Drug Incs' played up the bladder damage, the persistant dissociative feeling with abusers, and how it's just horse and cat tranquilizer that's no longer used on humans. Combat Medic non-challantly showed medics giving ketamine to US soldiers in Afghanistan, because it's an effective and immediate anesthetic. They were subtle about it, but it was there. Our the dissonance in the media about drugs like this is indicative of fear mongering and propaganda.

tptacek 11y ago
This would have been a better comment without the "educate yourself and stop being a pawn of the drug war." Please remain civil.
spotman 11y ago
Just want to say, I hear you and in no way am I a fan of the drug war. I should have read more about toxicity levels before commenting. The reason my initial gut felt this way is not due to any documentary or scare tactic it's purely personal experience. I have two close friends that have taken the recreation too far. One now has permanent bladder issues and the other was lucky to get their habit in check in time. So my gut reaction was not very scientific, apologies. I am a huge fan of legalization and science. Let people make their own mistakes and if there is a medical path that helps people I'm all for it! Just hope that this is also part of the discussion ( harm prevention ) because there is some real risks with abuse, that personally I have witnessed first hand. Having said that science over fear for sure, I am a fan of science over fear. I still feel more positive light than negative and am hopeful people use his for good!

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Igglyboo 11y ago

> Ketamine has major issues with bladder damage when taken repetitively. At recreational doses, doctors aren't going to be prescribing anywhere near that.

llamataboot 11y ago
There are other similar family drugs that seem less likely to harm the bladder (see MXE and new ketamine analogs) while still having the anti-depressant and neuro-protective effects of ketamine. Jury is still out on how prevalent bladder damage is, and if its caused by ketamine itself. AFAIK, most of the cases where bladder damage have shown up have been reversible and in extremely high dose and chronic ketamine usage. FWIW - doctors are definitely using "recreational" doses in these experiments.
user_0001 11y ago
Not recreational dosages. At serious addiction levels yes. It would be like saying having a couple of recreational beers on a Friday causes liver failure. It doesn't. Drinking a bottle of whiskey every day for an extended period of time, perhaps. Same with Ketamine
- bigbugbag 11y ago
  This is in direct contradiction of the usual consensus among harm reduction practitioners, as explained on erowid: Ketamine and Bladder Health In some cases, chronic ketamine use has been associated with urinary tract symptoms that can include increased frequency of urination, urinary incontinence, pain during urination, passing blood in the urine, and reduced bladder size. In several reported severe cases, surgical intervention to remove the bladder was deemed necessary by clinicians. The wide dose-response range leading to documented cases suggests that individual responses to ketamine may be idiosyncratic and unpredictable, making it unclear what level and frequency of use may lead to urinary problems. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_health.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_health.sh...
  - user_0001 11y ago