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Disclaimer: I'm a Canadian expat who's been living and working in the US tech industry for a few years. > "Google Raids Threaten Canada's Lead in Artificial In

Disclaimer: I'm a Canadian expat who's been living and working in the US tech industry for a few years. > "Google Raids Threaten Canada's Lead in Artificial Intelligence" This seems like an unnecessary specific title, I'd suggest the following edit: "US Tech Company Compensation Threaten Canada's Trailing Status in All of Tech" For one thing, this isn't just an AI thing, US companies have been moving Canadian tech workers south of the border for years across the board, regardless of specialization or focus area. Everyone from the humblest code monkey to the brainiest algorithms wrangler is being exported from Canada at a rapid pace. This has been happening for long enough that a significant fraction of Canadian tech talent is already residing in the US, which sort of raises eyebrows about any claims that Canada "leads" in tech currently. If there ever was a lead the brain drain has certainly put that to bed long ago. And it's not just Google, all of the major companies recruit Canadians heavily, and even startups have gotten in on the game in recent years. And these aren't "raids". Google isn't marching off computer scientists at gunpoint. There's nothing predatory about this - if Canadian companies want to play in the same league as US tech, they need to catch up, the least of which is narrowing the pay gap. Right now I am literally making 500% the salary a similar position pays in Canada. Even accounting for the living costs of SF/SV/NYC it's not hard to see why people make the move. Canadian tech pays incredibly poorly in comparison to US tech, and that's far and away the #1 reason the brain drain exists and will persist. I'm a proud Canadian, and all else being equal I'd rather live in Canada than the US, but one of the persistently annoying things about Canada's tech industry narrative is the continuous denial of just how far behind they are compared to the US.

branchless 11y ago
500% ? What field? I'm in Canada and earning a good wage. I could go to some hellish place like NY and live in a cardboard box and up my wage 50% (and work longer hours, with less holidays so less time with my kids). I don't see 500% as a likely pay gap for most.
- potatolicious 11y ago
  I'm in iOS dev. > "I could go to some hellish place like NY and live in a cardboard box and up my wage 50% (and work longer hours, with less holidays so less time with my kids)." I hear this a lot from Canadian colleagues who stay in Canada, and I dunno, it always irks me a little bit. Increasing your wage doesn't necessarily entail longer hours or fewer holidays. It seems like it's a popular perception in Canada to imagine all US jobs as some kind of hellish sweatshop where you're chained to your desk all day in exchange for more money - but in reality the spread of job quality is the same here as it is in some place like Toronto or Vancouver. You will find the same shitty sweatshop jobs and you will find great jobs - the pay increase seems entirely orthogonal to that. The market rate is simply higher - much higher, across the board.
  - branchless 11y ago
    But not 500%, I'm quite sure. I think large urban centers generally have longer working hours. Such as NY and London. Typically the living quarters are smaller, the commute is longer and the culture is more "you shall be here until at least 6pm because you live to work". Not everywhere, but on average.
    - potatolicious 11y ago
      I'm in NY, my office is empty at 9am, mostly full at 10am, starts emptying at 5pm, and is mostly deserted by 6pm. People work from home all the time, and leaving early is entirely accepted and even encouraged. This feels like it lines up with, well, everywhere else. I've had 4 jobs in this city and this has been the case with every single one, and they've ranged from tech megacorps to startups. This isn't some pressure-cooker investment banking job... I feel like your impression of NY tech (I can't speak to London) is drawn from stereotypes more than reality. I've worked also in Toronto and the work expectations do not feel much different - if anything it feels a bit more lax here in NYC than TO. > "But not 500%, I'm quite sure." I dunno, what do you think an iOS developer with ~4 years of experience fetches in Toronto or Vancouver? Let's say total comp (i.e., salary, any guaranteed bonuses, public stock).
      - 11y ago
- serge2k 11y ago
  My take home in Seattle is ~2.3 times what I made in BC. That's not including stock and bonuses either. Granted my rent has gone up by a factor of 3.5, but after paying rent I've still got double the money leftover. Other things are cheaper too. Now of course there is a couple years experience vs when I was in BC, but I would still probably be close to double.
  - branchless 11y ago
    Ok it's working for you then. I think with housing costs factored in plus the net pay as the pay increase is taxed at a higher rate, plus quality of life issues make it less appealing. In the main I'm talking about "world cities" where the big finance firms launder money through property, detaching the price from local wages, such as NY, LN and TK. I wouldn't count Seattle as a "big" city. The OP was talking about NY and SF, both of these are very big.
- jsnk 11y ago
  > "hellish place like NY" As opposed to what kind of place in Canada? NY was pretty awesome the last time I visited.
  - branchless 11y ago
    It's subjective. I think it's hellish to live in. To visit, great.
    - CountSessine 11y ago
      What isn't subjective is the higher pay.
      - branchless 11y ago
        Which I didn't dispute. I disputed the idea that it's 500% from some guy who has 4 years experience.
deegles 11y ago
Same for Mexican software engineers. Except the difference is more like 13-15x. I just found a job posting for a .NET web dev role for $17k pesos per month, equivalent to $12k dollars per year. Even adjusted for COL, US salaries are a fortune.
vmarsy 11y ago
I feel that you could replace "Canada" with a lot of other countries here. Canada is even more impacted due to its geographical proximity and the agreements between the US and Canada, but what you said rings true for a lot of European countries as well!
pravda 11y ago
>I'm a proud Canadian, and all else being equal I'd rather live in Canada than the US, I think we need some border-tightening. :-) Here's another title: "Canadians Drive down Salaries of US Artificial Intelligence Researchers"

branchless 11y ago

500% ? What field? I'm in Canada and earning a good wage. I could go to some hellish place like NY and live in a cardboard box and up my wage 50% (and work longer hours, with less holidays so less time with my kids). I don't see 500% as a likely pay gap for most.

potatolicious 11y ago
I'm in iOS dev. > "I could go to some hellish place like NY and live in a cardboard box and up my wage 50% (and work longer hours, with less holidays so less time with my kids)." I hear this a lot from Canadian colleagues who stay in Canada, and I dunno, it always irks me a little bit. Increasing your wage doesn't necessarily entail longer hours or fewer holidays. It seems like it's a popular perception in Canada to imagine all US jobs as some kind of hellish sweatshop where you're chained to your desk all day in exchange for more money - but in reality the spread of job quality is the same here as it is in some place like Toronto or Vancouver. You will find the same shitty sweatshop jobs and you will find great jobs - the pay increase seems entirely orthogonal to that. The market rate is simply higher - much higher, across the board.
- branchless 11y ago
  But not 500%, I'm quite sure. I think large urban centers generally have longer working hours. Such as NY and London. Typically the living quarters are smaller, the commute is longer and the culture is more "you shall be here until at least 6pm because you live to work". Not everywhere, but on average.
  - potatolicious 11y ago
    I'm in NY, my office is empty at 9am, mostly full at 10am, starts emptying at 5pm, and is mostly deserted by 6pm. People work from home all the time, and leaving early is entirely accepted and even encouraged. This feels like it lines up with, well, everywhere else. I've had 4 jobs in this city and this has been the case with every single one, and they've ranged from tech megacorps to startups. This isn't some pressure-cooker investment banking job... I feel like your impression of NY tech (I can't speak to London) is drawn from stereotypes more than reality. I've worked also in Toronto and the work expectations do not feel much different - if anything it feels a bit more lax here in NYC than TO. > "But not 500%, I'm quite sure." I dunno, what do you think an iOS developer with ~4 years of experience fetches in Toronto or Vancouver? Let's say total comp (i.e., salary, any guaranteed bonuses, public stock).
    - 11y ago
serge2k 11y ago
My take home in Seattle is ~2.3 times what I made in BC. That's not including stock and bonuses either. Granted my rent has gone up by a factor of 3.5, but after paying rent I've still got double the money leftover. Other things are cheaper too. Now of course there is a couple years experience vs when I was in BC, but I would still probably be close to double.
- branchless 11y ago
  Ok it's working for you then. I think with housing costs factored in plus the net pay as the pay increase is taxed at a higher rate, plus quality of life issues make it less appealing. In the main I'm talking about "world cities" where the big finance firms launder money through property, detaching the price from local wages, such as NY, LN and TK. I wouldn't count Seattle as a "big" city. The OP was talking about NY and SF, both of these are very big.
jsnk 11y ago
> "hellish place like NY" As opposed to what kind of place in Canada? NY was pretty awesome the last time I visited.
- branchless 11y ago
  It's subjective. I think it's hellish to live in. To visit, great.
  - CountSessine 11y ago
    What isn't subjective is the higher pay.
    - branchless 11y ago
      Which I didn't dispute. I disputed the idea that it's 500% from some guy who has 4 years experience.

deegles 11y ago

Same for Mexican software engineers. Except the difference is more like 13-15x. I just found a job posting for a .NET web dev role for $17k pesos per month, equivalent to $12k dollars per year. Even adjusted for COL, US salaries are a fortune.

vmarsy 11y ago

I feel that you could replace "Canada" with a lot of other countries here. Canada is even more impacted due to its geographical proximity and the agreements between the US and Canada, but what you said rings true for a lot of European countries as well!

pravda 11y ago

>I'm a proud Canadian, and all else being equal I'd rather live in Canada than the US, I think we need some border-tightening. :-) Here's another title: "Canadians Drive down Salaries of US Artificial Intelligence Researchers"