6 ms·

Better Off Deadbeat: Getting Bill Collectors Off His Back. He Sues Them.

75 points by shrike 17y ago

wendroid 17y ago
> Investors like Cunningham fell the fastest. One man's investor is another man's parasite.
DanielStraight 17y ago
Given that collectors have called me repeatedly looking for someone else and refused to listen when I told them it was a wrong number, I have no trouble believing they are violating laws in dealing with people that actually have debts. If suing them will get them to change, I'm all for it.
- nkassis 17y ago
  I've had that problem alot with my last phone number. And now it started happening with my new number. I dunno what to do other than change the damn number. It's stupid, and I had a guy call twice just to make sure. And I have to keep this phone on for emergency calls (I'm a sysadmin). I put this number on the no-call list which didn't do anything. They can probably get away with by saying they had no clue the number was reassigned and that they already had dealing with the person. This is a loophole of the no call list.
  - paul9290 17y ago
    Use Google VOice or a similar service and only calls you allow will get through. ALl others could go to a voicemail that's the sound of a disconnected phone.
Seiwynn 17y ago
I have really mixed feelings about this article. I really feel like this guy, Craig, who is suing the debt collectors is a hacker for finding the information about possible violations and pursing it legally. I am also all for punishing debt collectors for actions that abuse debtors. However, there are several things that rub me the wrong way. 1) The fact that it is easier (less expensive) for a company to settle a case for $1K, rather than fight and win a case while costing themselves $10k gives the companies no incentive to fight back. Also, The plaintiff is already in debt and is having trouble paying, so what would a company get out of counter suing? 2) Statements like - "Katz doesn't believe that people are morally obligated to pay back their debts." and "People are brainwashed to think that paying a credit card is more important than paying for the necessities of life." - Maybe if people spent more time worrying about the necessities of life and less about luxury they wouldn't be in debt in the first place.
- wildjim 17y ago
  Statements like - "Katz doesn't believe that people are morally obligated to pay back their debts." I'm not sure I disagree -- "Usuary" used to be thoroughly illegal/immoral/etc didn't it? ... and "People are brainwashed to think that paying a credit card is more important than paying for the necessities of life." - Maybe if people spent more time worrying about the necessities of life and less about luxury they wouldn't be in debt in the first place. I definitely believe credit cards are less important than basic necessities.
  - angelbob 17y ago
    Usury was forbidden by the Bible, if memory serves. Still, that doesn't make accepting the loan moral and offering the loan immoral. Presumably both sides are breaking the old Biblical prohibition.
    - ars 17y ago
      The bible prohibits any interest, not just excessive interest. A loan is supposed to be charity, not a money making opportunity. If someone needs money to open a business or the like, then the lender is supposed to partner/go into business with him, not just lend at interest. You can get around the prohibition by structuring the partnership into something that acts like interest, but the intent of that is for business, it's not intended to replace charity loans.
  - pyre 17y ago
    I think the point is that most people don't run up massive credit card debt on 'the basic necessities of life.'
- seldo 17y ago
  > The fact that it is easier (less expensive) for a company to settle a case for $1K, rather than fight and win a case while costing themselves $10k gives the companies no incentive to fight back. Of course, that works both ways -- debt collection agencies frequently pile on their own fees to the original debt, which for small debts can double the amount the consumer pays back. Most people don't fight these charges because it's too much trouble to do so. This is just giving them a taste of their own medicine.
michaelcampbell 17y ago
I can see both sides of this story, and I'm quite sure collection agencies break the rules, and they deserve to get called on it. But... "I don't have to do anything but stay black and die." That sort of behavior is where I draw the line. You made the bad calls, you got into debt, pay your damn debts. And sue the collectors too if you like, but that they are doing wrong things doesn't obviate your responsibilities.
- dnsworks 17y ago
  At the scale of a small-time investor, you must pay your damn debts. But do you feel that holds true going up the food chain? GM will never have to repay all of it's debts that were coerced out of the american public against our will. The bankers at the large banks who coerced almost ONE TRILLION DOLLARS worth of debts are getting their fattest bonuses ever, and will likely not fully repay those debts. But the little guy has a moral obligation? Yeah, his only mistake was only borrowing $100k. If he had been a slick stanford or harvard MBA he would have borrowed $250million, and gotten a congressional pat on the back when he defaulted.
  - michaelcampbell 17y ago
    I'm...not sure where you're going here other than possibly using my comment as a springboard for your soapbox, but since you asked; I never implied in any way I feel that just the little guy has a moral obligation. I think GM and your "slick Stanford or Harvard MBA" toting strawman should have to pay their debts too. <shrug> Now if doing that would cause even greater grief, say to the hundreds (of thousands?) of employees who'd lose their jobs? It's a tough call, and one I'm glad I'm not making. The correct response to elected officials not doing what you want is to vote someone in who will.
briancooley 17y ago
As someone who is financially conservative, I frown upon people intent to avoid debt they willingly incurred. On the other hand: "Usually it's settled because the agency says, Uh, we didn't intend to do that. Our collector said the wrong thing and we fess up and say, 'I didn't mean to do it but I did it..." Really? That's the collection agency's defense? I didn't mean to do it? If it's your business to get debtors to pay their debts, you deserve to get busted when the debtor knows the law better than you. It's your business for Pete's sake. Add to that the complaints about all the technicalities and about individuals filing lawsuits without the need for a lawyer, and it's pretty clear that collections agencies thrive on and exploit the ignorance of debtors, which is ashame.
- nkassis 17y ago
  Their defense seems to me like a lie. By the sheer amount of occurrence of these lawsuit, you'd think they would make sure their employees don't break the law. Except they probably don't think their business could work without breaking the law. This business is as scrupulous as the mafia. They have no way of making money without breaking the law. How many people would pay if you told them all we can do is wreck you credit that is already wrecked. On the other hand, they do bring in a balance that allows us all to have cheap unsecured debt. So.. these evil guys are necessary for the system to exist the way it is today.
grellas 17y ago
This fellow's quest for "justice" against debt collection agencies has brought him to a point where he is suing the latest agency "and twenty-seven (27) of its employees in their individual capacities" for $200K. I have dealt professionally in one way or another (mostly incidentally) with debt collection agencies, and they truly are revolting in the tactics they routinely use to pressure debtors for collection. Indeed, the whole industry is set up to win through psychological intimidation and to avoid the court process. That is the only way this industry makes economic sense. Need to collect an $80 bill? It is impossible to do this realistically through a convoluted court system with its costs and delays. If you have thousands of such bills, however, and hire extremely cheap labor to harass the debtors to the point where such debtors see it as easier to pay than to put up with the continual harassment, and, viola, an industry is born that lets vendors sell their otherwise uncollectable receivables wholesale for a fraction on the dollar rather than simply writing them off while giving the participants in that industry a (sordid) method of realizing value from the receivables so purchased. It was always something of a devil's bargain but it worked in practice so long as the harassment techniques could be used without penalty. For a couple of decades, at least, various laws have existed to enable consumers to defend themselves against sleazy collection techniques. As long as the mass of consumers were ignorant of such laws, however, and had to hire attorneys to pursue claims based on violations of such laws, there was still no effective recourse for consumers - it simply was too expensive and complicated to try to fight back with lawyers for any given violation. It now seems that the web has supplied the final piece to enable those who are sufficiently motivated, such as Mr. Cunnigham, to both educate themselves and to have the wherewithal to file pro se lawsuits seeking recourse. Ironically, this has exposed the soft underbelly of this particular industry, to wit, if you hire exceedingly cheap workers and pay them to harass debtors into paying, you are dealing with a class of employees who are perhaps the least trainable you could imagine for avoiding the traps that the law now imposes upon those who overstep its highly technical bounds. Thus, for debtors who are sufficiently motivated, it is a bit like shooting ducks in a gallery: little downside, and little upside for that matter (at least for anyone who wants to have a life), but a fairly high percentage of hits. That said, Mr. Cunningham seems to be about as unscrupulous as the industry he is challenging. At best, he seems to be a vexatious litigant (what else does it mean to sue 27 undoubtedly minimum-wage employees of the agencies in their individual capacities for technical violations of laws just because he has a gripe with their employer and, not only sue, but also bombard them with endless oppressive discovery requests?); at worst, he appears to be someone who has no scruples whatever about stiffing anyone and everyone who has had the misfortune ever to deal with him. It reminds me of a matter years ago where a franchisor had cheated so many innocent franchisees through fraud and misrepresentation that the franchisor bolted up its headquarters and armed it with second-floor security cameras trained at the front entrance as a full-time means of dodging process servers. That particular scammer had it all rationalized and in the end got slammed - a fate which may ultimately await Mr. Cunningham as well as he becomes increasingly reckless and sordid in his conduct.
davidblair 17y ago
This article is about a FatWallet member named codename47. If you want to read a more complete discussion about the article you can at http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/984518/ http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/984518/
blahedo 17y ago
I have mixed feelings about this guy, but it's telling that a lot of the objections are to this guy acting like a lawyer. I mean, how dare he! What does it mean when they object more, as if morally, to the people who are filing pro se---and winning anyway? Hmm.
synarch 17y ago
The fact is, credit needs to be tightened up. People like Cunningham get in over their heads. That's on them. The onus of extending risk to such borrowers is on the lenders. These lawsuits are just going to be another factor in calculating risk, which will ultimately, one would hope, tighten up credit. Rampant, aggressive debt collection is just the flipside of loose credit and lending.
Sukotto 17y ago
Wow, this guy epitomizes the concept of defeating your enemy by becoming them. He's just as nasty as the collection agencies. The fact that he's attacking them, instead of a defaulter is a mere technicality.
samd 17y ago
What a great hack. Nobody should feel any unease at using perfectly legal methods to fight back against a system that is designed to screw people over. Who exactly deserves our sympathy in this article? Verizon? Time Warner? Bank of America? They would steal candy from a baby and charge the parents a service fee.
leelin 17y ago
I'm fine with legit collections calls as long as a human collector has to waste equal or more time trying to reach me. This recent invention of automated collections calls seems to shift an enormous amount of abusive power to the collector. Now I can receive random calls at almost any hour of the day, nearly every two or three days, only to have a recording spew a number I need to call back to talk to a collector. The worst part is, I'm not the one they are looking for, it's whoever (had my phone number previously | gave my phone number as a fake). I wonder if Craig from this article will take my case for a referral fee :P

75 points by shrike 17y ago

> Investors like Cunningham fell the fastest. One man's investor is another man's parasite.

Given that collectors have called me repeatedly looking for someone else and refused to listen when I told them it was a wrong number, I have no trouble believing they are violating laws in dealing with people that actually have debts. If suing them will get them to change, I'm all for it.

nkassis 17y ago
I've had that problem alot with my last phone number. And now it started happening with my new number. I dunno what to do other than change the damn number. It's stupid, and I had a guy call twice just to make sure. And I have to keep this phone on for emergency calls (I'm a sysadmin). I put this number on the no-call list which didn't do anything. They can probably get away with by saying they had no clue the number was reassigned and that they already had dealing with the person. This is a loophole of the no call list.
- paul9290 17y ago
  Use Google VOice or a similar service and only calls you allow will get through. ALl others could go to a voicemail that's the sound of a disconnected phone.

Seiwynn 17y ago

I have really mixed feelings about this article. I really feel like this guy, Craig, who is suing the debt collectors is a hacker for finding the information about possible violations and pursing it legally. I am also all for punishing debt collectors for actions that abuse debtors. However, there are several things that rub me the wrong way. 1) The fact that it is easier (less expensive) for a company to settle a case for $1K, rather than fight and win a case while costing themselves $10k gives the companies no incentive to fight back. Also, The plaintiff is already in debt and is having trouble paying, so what would a company get out of counter suing? 2) Statements like - "Katz doesn't believe that people are morally obligated to pay back their debts." and "People are brainwashed to think that paying a credit card is more important than paying for the necessities of life." - Maybe if people spent more time worrying about the necessities of life and less about luxury they wouldn't be in debt in the first place.

wildjim 17y ago
Statements like - "Katz doesn't believe that people are morally obligated to pay back their debts." I'm not sure I disagree -- "Usuary" used to be thoroughly illegal/immoral/etc didn't it? ... and "People are brainwashed to think that paying a credit card is more important than paying for the necessities of life." - Maybe if people spent more time worrying about the necessities of life and less about luxury they wouldn't be in debt in the first place. I definitely believe credit cards are less important than basic necessities.
- angelbob 17y ago
  Usury was forbidden by the Bible, if memory serves. Still, that doesn't make accepting the loan moral and offering the loan immoral. Presumably both sides are breaking the old Biblical prohibition.
  - ars 17y ago
    The bible prohibits any interest, not just excessive interest. A loan is supposed to be charity, not a money making opportunity. If someone needs money to open a business or the like, then the lender is supposed to partner/go into business with him, not just lend at interest. You can get around the prohibition by structuring the partnership into something that acts like interest, but the intent of that is for business, it's not intended to replace charity loans.
- pyre 17y ago
  I think the point is that most people don't run up massive credit card debt on 'the basic necessities of life.'
seldo 17y ago
> The fact that it is easier (less expensive) for a company to settle a case for $1K, rather than fight and win a case while costing themselves $10k gives the companies no incentive to fight back. Of course, that works both ways -- debt collection agencies frequently pile on their own fees to the original debt, which for small debts can double the amount the consumer pays back. Most people don't fight these charges because it's too much trouble to do so. This is just giving them a taste of their own medicine.

michaelcampbell 17y ago

I can see both sides of this story, and I'm quite sure collection agencies break the rules, and they deserve to get called on it. But... "I don't have to do anything but stay black and die." That sort of behavior is where I draw the line. You made the bad calls, you got into debt, pay your damn debts. And sue the collectors too if you like, but that they are doing wrong things doesn't obviate your responsibilities.

dnsworks 17y ago
At the scale of a small-time investor, you must pay your damn debts. But do you feel that holds true going up the food chain? GM will never have to repay all of it's debts that were coerced out of the american public against our will. The bankers at the large banks who coerced almost ONE TRILLION DOLLARS worth of debts are getting their fattest bonuses ever, and will likely not fully repay those debts. But the little guy has a moral obligation? Yeah, his only mistake was only borrowing $100k. If he had been a slick stanford or harvard MBA he would have borrowed $250million, and gotten a congressional pat on the back when he defaulted.
- michaelcampbell 17y ago
  I'm...not sure where you're going here other than possibly using my comment as a springboard for your soapbox, but since you asked; I never implied in any way I feel that just the little guy has a moral obligation. I think GM and your "slick Stanford or Harvard MBA" toting strawman should have to pay their debts too. <shrug> Now if doing that would cause even greater grief, say to the hundreds (of thousands?) of employees who'd lose their jobs? It's a tough call, and one I'm glad I'm not making. The correct response to elected officials not doing what you want is to vote someone in who will.

briancooley 17y ago

As someone who is financially conservative, I frown upon people intent to avoid debt they willingly incurred. On the other hand: "Usually it's settled because the agency says, Uh, we didn't intend to do that. Our collector said the wrong thing and we fess up and say, 'I didn't mean to do it but I did it..." Really? That's the collection agency's defense? I didn't mean to do it? If it's your business to get debtors to pay their debts, you deserve to get busted when the debtor knows the law better than you. It's your business for Pete's sake. Add to that the complaints about all the technicalities and about individuals filing lawsuits without the need for a lawyer, and it's pretty clear that collections agencies thrive on and exploit the ignorance of debtors, which is ashame.

nkassis 17y ago
Their defense seems to me like a lie. By the sheer amount of occurrence of these lawsuit, you'd think they would make sure their employees don't break the law. Except they probably don't think their business could work without breaking the law. This business is as scrupulous as the mafia. They have no way of making money without breaking the law. How many people would pay if you told them all we can do is wreck you credit that is already wrecked. On the other hand, they do bring in a balance that allows us all to have cheap unsecured debt. So.. these evil guys are necessary for the system to exist the way it is today.

grellas 17y ago

This fellow's quest for "justice" against debt collection agencies has brought him to a point where he is suing the latest agency "and twenty-seven (27) of its employees in their individual capacities" for $200K. I have dealt professionally in one way or another (mostly incidentally) with debt collection agencies, and they truly are revolting in the tactics they routinely use to pressure debtors for collection. Indeed, the whole industry is set up to win through psychological intimidation and to avoid the court process. That is the only way this industry makes economic sense. Need to collect an $80 bill? It is impossible to do this realistically through a convoluted court system with its costs and delays. If you have thousands of such bills, however, and hire extremely cheap labor to harass the debtors to the point where such debtors see it as easier to pay than to put up with the continual harassment, and, viola, an industry is born that lets vendors sell their otherwise uncollectable receivables wholesale for a fraction on the dollar rather than simply writing them off while giving the participants in that industry a (sordid) method of realizing value from the receivables so purchased. It was always something of a devil's bargain but it worked in practice so long as the harassment techniques could be used without penalty. For a couple of decades, at least, various laws have existed to enable consumers to defend themselves against sleazy collection techniques. As long as the mass of consumers were ignorant of such laws, however, and had to hire attorneys to pursue claims based on violations of such laws, there was still no effective recourse for consumers - it simply was too expensive and complicated to try to fight back with lawyers for any given violation. It now seems that the web has supplied the final piece to enable those who are sufficiently motivated, such as Mr. Cunnigham, to both educate themselves and to have the wherewithal to file pro se lawsuits seeking recourse. Ironically, this has exposed the soft underbelly of this particular industry, to wit, if you hire exceedingly cheap workers and pay them to harass debtors into paying, you are dealing with a class of employees who are perhaps the least trainable you could imagine for avoiding the traps that the law now imposes upon those who overstep its highly technical bounds. Thus, for debtors who are sufficiently motivated, it is a bit like shooting ducks in a gallery: little downside, and little upside for that matter (at least for anyone who wants to have a life), but a fairly high percentage of hits. That said, Mr. Cunningham seems to be about as unscrupulous as the industry he is challenging. At best, he seems to be a vexatious litigant (what else does it mean to sue 27 undoubtedly minimum-wage employees of the agencies in their individual capacities for technical violations of laws just because he has a gripe with their employer and, not only sue, but also bombard them with endless oppressive discovery requests?); at worst, he appears to be someone who has no scruples whatever about stiffing anyone and everyone who has had the misfortune ever to deal with him. It reminds me of a matter years ago where a franchisor had cheated so many innocent franchisees through fraud and misrepresentation that the franchisor bolted up its headquarters and armed it with second-floor security cameras trained at the front entrance as a full-time means of dodging process servers. That particular scammer had it all rationalized and in the end got slammed - a fate which may ultimately await Mr. Cunningham as well as he becomes increasingly reckless and sordid in his conduct.

davidblair 17y ago

This article is about a FatWallet member named codename47. If you want to read a more complete discussion about the article you can at http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/984518/ http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/984518/

blahedo 17y ago

I have mixed feelings about this guy, but it's telling that a lot of the objections are to this guy acting like a lawyer. I mean, how dare he! What does it mean when they object more, as if morally, to the people who are filing pro se---and winning anyway? Hmm.

synarch 17y ago

The fact is, credit needs to be tightened up. People like Cunningham get in over their heads. That's on them. The onus of extending risk to such borrowers is on the lenders. These lawsuits are just going to be another factor in calculating risk, which will ultimately, one would hope, tighten up credit. Rampant, aggressive debt collection is just the flipside of loose credit and lending.

Sukotto 17y ago

Wow, this guy epitomizes the concept of defeating your enemy by becoming them. He's just as nasty as the collection agencies. The fact that he's attacking them, instead of a defaulter is a mere technicality.

samd 17y ago

What a great hack. Nobody should feel any unease at using perfectly legal methods to fight back against a system that is designed to screw people over. Who exactly deserves our sympathy in this article? Verizon? Time Warner? Bank of America? They would steal candy from a baby and charge the parents a service fee.

leelin 17y ago

I'm fine with legit collections calls as long as a human collector has to waste equal or more time trying to reach me. This recent invention of automated collections calls seems to shift an enormous amount of abusive power to the collector. Now I can receive random calls at almost any hour of the day, nearly every two or three days, only to have a recording spew a number I need to call back to talk to a collector. The worst part is, I'm not the one they are looking for, it's whoever (had my phone number previously | gave my phone number as a fake). I wonder if Craig from this article will take my case for a referral fee :P