5 ms·

> Client side decorations give way more space to the actual content than to waste space for an almost empty titlebar. If Gnome 3 wanted to fix that, it should

by creshal 11y ago

> Client side decorations give way more space to the actual content than to waste space for an almost empty titlebar. If Gnome 3 wanted to fix that, it should just replace its space-wasting default theme. And in reality it's a non-issue everywhere else. No other desktop environment even has this debate. > Very strong language but you don't explain _at all_! Very easy: Consistency. Look at how absolutely, utterly shit Windows looks nowadays. Word doesn't blend in with Explorer doesn't blend in with regedit doesn't blend it with (the still XP-themed) GPO editor doesn't blend in with the new settings app doesn't blend in with the control panel doesn't blend in with Edge … My window manager should dictate how windows looks. This works for all toolkits, from GTK2 over FLTK over Qt all the way to Mono's GDI. All, except GTK3. And yet, it does not have to be a problem! A few years ago, this would have been a no-brainer: When GTK was presented with behavioural differences between desktop environments, it was implemented as a run-time option, configured by the GTK theme to allow desktops to configure GTK to its needs (like "images on buttons", mandatory in Xfce, shunned in Gnome). Client-side decorations are a compile-time switch. What the hell. > Regarding mouse wheel support: What basis do you say that 1) it was removed 2) it was made out of spite? GTK's notebook widget. It was removed for no reason, and users were told to just reimplement it in all applications they needed it in. What the hell.

ronjouch 11y ago
> > Client side decorations give way more space to the actual content than to waste space for an almost empty titlebar. > If Gnome 3 wanted to fix that, it should just replace its space-wasting default theme. And in reality it's a non-issue everywhere else. No other desktop environment even has this debate. Yes, other desktop environments have this debate. In Mac OSX, open any recent app and you'll see titlebars with actions (e.g. play/pause in iTunes, addressbar in Safari, etc.), presumably to compact window chrome.
bkor 11y ago
Regarding client side decorations: Lots of Windows applications draw on it. I now the technical separation of window manager vs toolkit. It's nice that you can always close the window. But practically speaking, CSD gives me way more space vs some theoretical idea that "it should not be done". The consistency argument I don't see. GTK+3.x apps can disable their CSD when running on other desktops. Within GNOME 3 though, it is consistent. Initially the apps would default to showing CSD but AFAIK latest GTK+3.x ensure they don't. Anyway regarding consistency: It is way nicer! If it is way nicer, then why hold back for consistency? You'd never be able to make a change. And basically there are two toolkits anyway, Qt and GTK+. I've been around for ages, but FLTK/Java stuff, etc... eventually you'll go down to a: no change ever. You said it is a compile time option. AFAIK it is not at all. Though with Wayland the use of xsettings is more difficult. They are specific to X after all. Regarding mouse wheel support you didn't give an example? In case of anything else you disagree with, please speak up as changes happen (d-d-l). It is pretty difficult to go against a decision that happened a long time ago. E.g. I could give a "this is bad / better revert" but unless people complain when things happen it is pretty hard/difficult. Notebook I didn't notice nor knew for instance. I do see other changes that are made, but usually when that is done they seem to have investigated how often it is used (not just git.gnome.org). Usually they find 0 or 1 app and that app is on git.gnome.org.
ewzimm 11y ago
>space-wasting default theme GNOME 3's default theme has the slimmest window chrome any GNOME has ever had. People think it's space-wasting because the fonts are larger, but they got larger-looking buttons in fewer pixels by compressing everything into one place. It's only space-wasting if you're using applications that don't support menus in the title bars, and even then it's about the same as GNOME 2. You can check it by running GNOME 2 and 3 side-by-side.
- jstimpfle 11y ago
  > GNOME 3's default theme has the slimmest window chrome any GNOME has ever had Even if that was true, what your parent said is that it's space wasting (in absolute terms). Which is actually an understatement. > It's only space-wasting if you're using applications that don't support menus in the title bars That's really two pairs of shoes. And assuming support for the gimmick of the day (which also presumably only works for GTK3 apps) is totally insane. And btw the default theme also sucks in that you can't easily see which window has keyboard focus. And if you change the theme, it gets messier as your parent described.
jstimpfle 11y ago
I totally agree with you. Sorry to get meta, but what is the rationale that HN doesn't show the number of upvotes to your comment? I hate that you get three counter-comments and zero agree comments (because it's dumb to comment "I totally agree"), but the fact that (presumably) most people agree with you is hidden from the user.
- noelsusman 11y ago
  HN tries to discourage the us vs. them herd mentality that you're talking about. It's not about winning an argument, it's about having a discussion. There's no need to know how many other people agree with a particular comment, we should make up our own minds about it.
  - jstimpfle 11y ago
    I agree it's wrong to center on votes instead of content. However, I'm often very interested what people's opinion is. For example, that has a strong influence on my temptation to raise my voice if I have strong opinions. So accessible vote counts might help reducing noise and pointing out where the controversy is. I think it would be a great compromise to have the vote count one or two clicks away.
    - pvg 11y ago
      that has a strong influence on my temptation to raise my voice These days, they have a person running around reminding people who succumb to that temptation not to. Seems to work well. So accessible vote counts might help reducing noise It introduces noise very similar to the 'visible downvotes' noise.
    - arbitrage 11y ago
      Raising your voice isn't really a great way to convince other people to consider your side of an issue.
      - jstimpfle 11y ago
nona 11y ago
> My window manager should dictate how windows looks. This works for all toolkits, from GTK2 over FLTK over Qt all the way to Mono's GDI. All, except GTK3. So you're arguing that because the window decorations are consistent, apps are consistent? Hate to break it to you, but running a GTK2 app under KDE/KWin will still look inconsistent. The only way you get to be consistent, is by having your app developers use the same toolkit. I don't see why the windows' frame should be regarded as "special" when all the button/tabs/filechooser/… widgets are different depending on the toolkit.
- jstimpfle 11y ago
  > The only way you get to be consistent, is by having your app developers use the same toolkit. Will never happen. Instead, if you want consistency, avoid redundancy in the first place (where it's practical)
  - nona 11y ago
    I agree, but well, you can choose to run only or mostly GTK or QT apps, and stop caring the occasional out of place app (Blender? Steam?) doesn't look consistent. And to be honest, I don't see why I would care that apps like Blender or Steam have a window frame that looks exactly like the window frames of my (non-CSD) desktop environment/window manager, when the apps themselves are completely out of place. But that's me, I suppose.
    - jstimpfle 11y ago
      > I don't see why I would care that apps like Blender or Steam have a window frame that looks exactly like the window frames Unless you use blender or steam, or evince (!) with anything other than gnome3 and default theme, that is, and unless any of the many reasons against CSDs resounds for you (as somebody below posted) http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/open-letter-the-issues-with-client-side-window-decorations/ http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/open-letter-th... Sounds very unrealistic, doesn't it?
- lomnakkus 11y ago
Veedrac 11y ago
> Client-side decorations are a compile-time switch. What the hell. See my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759579 As a TWM user, I have no idea what you're arguing against. GTK-3 is prettier, more functional and normally more compact than GTK-2. On top of that, smooth scroll is a blessing and touch support was lovely for PDFs when I had a touch screen.

by creshal 11y ago

ronjouch 11y ago

> > Client side decorations give way more space to the actual content than to waste space for an almost empty titlebar. > If Gnome 3 wanted to fix that, it should just replace its space-wasting default theme. And in reality it's a non-issue everywhere else. No other desktop environment even has this debate. Yes, other desktop environments have this debate. In Mac OSX, open any recent app and you'll see titlebars with actions (e.g. play/pause in iTunes, addressbar in Safari, etc.), presumably to compact window chrome.

bkor 11y ago

Regarding client side decorations: Lots of Windows applications draw on it. I now the technical separation of window manager vs toolkit. It's nice that you can always close the window. But practically speaking, CSD gives me way more space vs some theoretical idea that "it should not be done". The consistency argument I don't see. GTK+3.x apps can disable their CSD when running on other desktops. Within GNOME 3 though, it is consistent. Initially the apps would default to showing CSD but AFAIK latest GTK+3.x ensure they don't. Anyway regarding consistency: It is way nicer! If it is way nicer, then why hold back for consistency? You'd never be able to make a change. And basically there are two toolkits anyway, Qt and GTK+. I've been around for ages, but FLTK/Java stuff, etc... eventually you'll go down to a: no change ever. You said it is a compile time option. AFAIK it is not at all. Though with Wayland the use of xsettings is more difficult. They are specific to X after all. Regarding mouse wheel support you didn't give an example? In case of anything else you disagree with, please speak up as changes happen (d-d-l). It is pretty difficult to go against a decision that happened a long time ago. E.g. I could give a "this is bad / better revert" but unless people complain when things happen it is pretty hard/difficult. Notebook I didn't notice nor knew for instance. I do see other changes that are made, but usually when that is done they seem to have investigated how often it is used (not just git.gnome.org). Usually they find 0 or 1 app and that app is on git.gnome.org.

ewzimm 11y ago

>space-wasting default theme GNOME 3's default theme has the slimmest window chrome any GNOME has ever had. People think it's space-wasting because the fonts are larger, but they got larger-looking buttons in fewer pixels by compressing everything into one place. It's only space-wasting if you're using applications that don't support menus in the title bars, and even then it's about the same as GNOME 2. You can check it by running GNOME 2 and 3 side-by-side.

jstimpfle 11y ago
> GNOME 3's default theme has the slimmest window chrome any GNOME has ever had Even if that was true, what your parent said is that it's space wasting (in absolute terms). Which is actually an understatement. > It's only space-wasting if you're using applications that don't support menus in the title bars That's really two pairs of shoes. And assuming support for the gimmick of the day (which also presumably only works for GTK3 apps) is totally insane. And btw the default theme also sucks in that you can't easily see which window has keyboard focus. And if you change the theme, it gets messier as your parent described.

jstimpfle 11y ago

I totally agree with you. Sorry to get meta, but what is the rationale that HN doesn't show the number of upvotes to your comment? I hate that you get three counter-comments and zero agree comments (because it's dumb to comment "I totally agree"), but the fact that (presumably) most people agree with you is hidden from the user.

noelsusman 11y ago
HN tries to discourage the us vs. them herd mentality that you're talking about. It's not about winning an argument, it's about having a discussion. There's no need to know how many other people agree with a particular comment, we should make up our own minds about it.
- jstimpfle 11y ago
  I agree it's wrong to center on votes instead of content. However, I'm often very interested what people's opinion is. For example, that has a strong influence on my temptation to raise my voice if I have strong opinions. So accessible vote counts might help reducing noise and pointing out where the controversy is. I think it would be a great compromise to have the vote count one or two clicks away.
  - pvg 11y ago
    that has a strong influence on my temptation to raise my voice These days, they have a person running around reminding people who succumb to that temptation not to. Seems to work well. So accessible vote counts might help reducing noise It introduces noise very similar to the 'visible downvotes' noise.
  - arbitrage 11y ago
    Raising your voice isn't really a great way to convince other people to consider your side of an issue.
    - jstimpfle 11y ago

nona 11y ago

> My window manager should dictate how windows looks. This works for all toolkits, from GTK2 over FLTK over Qt all the way to Mono's GDI. All, except GTK3. So you're arguing that because the window decorations are consistent, apps are consistent? Hate to break it to you, but running a GTK2 app under KDE/KWin will still look inconsistent. The only way you get to be consistent, is by having your app developers use the same toolkit. I don't see why the windows' frame should be regarded as "special" when all the button/tabs/filechooser/… widgets are different depending on the toolkit.

jstimpfle 11y ago
> The only way you get to be consistent, is by having your app developers use the same toolkit. Will never happen. Instead, if you want consistency, avoid redundancy in the first place (where it's practical)
- nona 11y ago
  I agree, but well, you can choose to run only or mostly GTK or QT apps, and stop caring the occasional out of place app (Blender? Steam?) doesn't look consistent. And to be honest, I don't see why I would care that apps like Blender or Steam have a window frame that looks exactly like the window frames of my (non-CSD) desktop environment/window manager, when the apps themselves are completely out of place. But that's me, I suppose.
  - jstimpfle 11y ago
    > I don't see why I would care that apps like Blender or Steam have a window frame that looks exactly like the window frames Unless you use blender or steam, or evince (!) with anything other than gnome3 and default theme, that is, and unless any of the many reasons against CSDs resounds for you (as somebody below posted) http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/open-letter-the-issues-with-client-side-window-decorations/ http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/open-letter-th... Sounds very unrealistic, doesn't it?
lomnakkus 11y ago

Veedrac 11y ago

> Client-side decorations are a compile-time switch. What the hell. See my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10759579 As a TWM user, I have no idea what you're arguing against. GTK-3 is prettier, more functional and normally more compact than GTK-2. On top of that, smooth scroll is a blessing and touch support was lovely for PDFs when I had a touch screen.