4 ms·

> but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you w

> but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, So, no more "ladies first" and gentleman treatment for women?

gvb 11y ago
The golden rule requires you to be courteous regardless of gender. For instance, when you reach the door first, hold it open for the others, regardless of their gender.
- Ntrails 11y ago
  No, it doesn't. It says "If you would want them to hold the door open for you were the places switched, then hold the door open." Of course if I don't really care about it, then I'm free not to bother. If I would rather someone confronted me when my code is shit, rather than letting it slide, then that is how I treat everyone else too. There is a strong argument to say the golden rule is really saying "treat others the way society tells you to" and some contend it should simply be "treat others the way they want to be treated". Of course at that point you've lost the simplicity of the original phrase and the primary teaching implement of self interest. Not to mention, at some point there are limits to the extent I am going to pander to someones wishes in how they want to be treated. I respect your right to self-identify as an attack helicopter, but I'm not going to bow my head as I approach to avoid your rotor blades.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
squeaky-clean 11y ago
More like no more gentlemanly treatment just because they're a woman. A real gentleman will be gentlemanly to everyone.
joshkpeterson 11y ago
Yes.
pdex 11y ago
The golden rule applies to everyone regardless of gender. Think of it like how you would speak to your mother or father (assuming one has a healthy, respectful relationship of course). If you speak to a female colleague, is it something you can say to your own mother and be taken as appropriate? Same for if it were a male colleague, are the words appropriate to say to your own father? If the answer is "No" then don't say it, I wish more companies would enforce this in their culture. I've run into childish inappropriateness more than anything, phrases not indented to harass, but are extremely disrespectful, not funny, and easily taken the wrong way. An example: 5 of us, one of them a female, were chatting in a breakroom when a male colleague joked about using a "fleshlight" to relieve stress (I am leaving out details to keep this short). He was straight out of college and didn't have much professional experience. The female in the group became visibly uncomfortable and left. Since the conversation was more about to know our colleague's hobbies outside of work, it was an incredibly awkward turn to the conversation. "Pfff, what's with HER?" the offending person asks as the female walks off, not knowing what he did, so another male in the group asked him if he talks to his mom "like that" about his fleshlight habit, it wasn't until then that he realized he was being inappropriate and he then apologized to everyone. He also sought out the female who left the conversation to apologize to her directly. He learned his lesson, but I've seen examples on BOTH sides of inappropriate talk that can alienate a person who's gender is in the minority of the group.
- NotOscarWilde 11y ago
  I like this anecdote because it contains a non-sexist but inappropriate statement. It also shows that there are at least two possible mindsets: * I talk to my coworkers like they are my mother and your colleague's * I talk to my coworkers like they are my friends The fact that the statement was non-sexist hints at the problem being the second mindset; as for me, I make sure not to say sexist (and racist and so on) things to anyone but I am okay with talking about sex and other personal-jovial matters with my actual friends. The "mother" analogy still has some flaws, though -- for instance, you can talk to your mother about financial, health-related and personal troubles, whereas your coworkers will feel uneasy with such information. Another thing is politics -- I try to politely argue against my mother's political views (say anti-immigration), but I think doing so in the workplace is a very bad idea.

gvb 11y ago

The golden rule requires you to be courteous regardless of gender. For instance, when you reach the door first, hold it open for the others, regardless of their gender.

Ntrails 11y ago
No, it doesn't. It says "If you would want them to hold the door open for you were the places switched, then hold the door open." Of course if I don't really care about it, then I'm free not to bother. If I would rather someone confronted me when my code is shit, rather than letting it slide, then that is how I treat everyone else too. There is a strong argument to say the golden rule is really saying "treat others the way society tells you to" and some contend it should simply be "treat others the way they want to be treated". Of course at that point you've lost the simplicity of the original phrase and the primary teaching implement of self interest. Not to mention, at some point there are limits to the extent I am going to pander to someones wishes in how they want to be treated. I respect your right to self-identify as an attack helicopter, but I'm not going to bow my head as I approach to avoid your rotor blades.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

squeaky-clean 11y ago

More like no more gentlemanly treatment just because they're a woman. A real gentleman will be gentlemanly to everyone.

joshkpeterson 11y ago

Yes.

pdex 11y ago

The golden rule applies to everyone regardless of gender. Think of it like how you would speak to your mother or father (assuming one has a healthy, respectful relationship of course). If you speak to a female colleague, is it something you can say to your own mother and be taken as appropriate? Same for if it were a male colleague, are the words appropriate to say to your own father? If the answer is "No" then don't say it, I wish more companies would enforce this in their culture. I've run into childish inappropriateness more than anything, phrases not indented to harass, but are extremely disrespectful, not funny, and easily taken the wrong way. An example: 5 of us, one of them a female, were chatting in a breakroom when a male colleague joked about using a "fleshlight" to relieve stress (I am leaving out details to keep this short). He was straight out of college and didn't have much professional experience. The female in the group became visibly uncomfortable and left. Since the conversation was more about to know our colleague's hobbies outside of work, it was an incredibly awkward turn to the conversation. "Pfff, what's with HER?" the offending person asks as the female walks off, not knowing what he did, so another male in the group asked him if he talks to his mom "like that" about his fleshlight habit, it wasn't until then that he realized he was being inappropriate and he then apologized to everyone. He also sought out the female who left the conversation to apologize to her directly. He learned his lesson, but I've seen examples on BOTH sides of inappropriate talk that can alienate a person who's gender is in the minority of the group.

NotOscarWilde 11y ago
I like this anecdote because it contains a non-sexist but inappropriate statement. It also shows that there are at least two possible mindsets: * I talk to my coworkers like they are my mother and your colleague's * I talk to my coworkers like they are my friends The fact that the statement was non-sexist hints at the problem being the second mindset; as for me, I make sure not to say sexist (and racist and so on) things to anyone but I am okay with talking about sex and other personal-jovial matters with my actual friends. The "mother" analogy still has some flaws, though -- for instance, you can talk to your mother about financial, health-related and personal troubles, whereas your coworkers will feel uneasy with such information. Another thing is politics -- I try to politely argue against my mother's political views (say anti-immigration), but I think doing so in the workplace is a very bad idea.