5 ms·

A lot of (and I would actually argue most) people are solely there to get a piece of paper which lets them have access to a decent job, and they're paying enorm

A lot of (and I would actually argue most) people are solely there to get a piece of paper which lets them have access to a decent job, and they're paying enormous amounts of money (and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt) to get that piece of paper. For all intents and purposes, they ARE paying for a product, and that's how they view it. College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, and when a system is set up where someone's performance on (sometimes quite arbitrary) classes impacts their ability to get a job, those people aren't going to behave like model students, they're going to optimize for a high grade. I'm frankly quite surprised that this academician author can't understand this.

sklogic 11y ago
> are solely there to get a piece of paper And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved. > and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). > College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, In most of the areas this is not true. In the other areas this is great, let's keep it this way as long as possible. I do not want to be butchered by a doctor who bypassed an assessment on their "performance on (sometimes quite arbitrary) classes" by simply paying more. If anything, this performance assessment must become more and more rigorous and tough. We need a grade deflation, not a grade inflation. EDIT: since the article is UK-specific, I am talking about the UK only. Student loans here would not cripple anyone financially.
- mathieuh 11y ago
  > And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved. Because (at least for me (and everyone I've spoken to)) university is completely useless. I haven't learnt anything in uni I hadn't already taught myself. I am 100% paying for the letters after my name.
  - sklogic 11y ago
    So you wasted years of your time and years of the other people time simply to get some stupid letters to add to your CV? Sorry, I ran out of sympathy.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  > Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). In the US, "ignoring" them results in a large build-up of interest while you defer payments, and the debt is one of the very few things that can't usually be discharged in bankruptcy.
- Thriptic 11y ago
  > And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? Because that "disgusting and lowly category" is the dominant demographic of users; get off your high horse. > Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). Student loan debt is some of the hardest to escape debt in the world, and if you don't get a solid job when you get out of college you can be absolutely crippled by it. > In most of the areas this is not true. In software development this is not true, but that's about it. In pretty much every basic job they expect to see a college degree or you're not getting a callback. Your physician example is also a poor one, as most of what is learned in pre-med has nothing to do with practicing medicine and is just an arbitrary barrier to entry to a professional school.
  - sklogic 11y ago
    > Because that "disgusting and lowly category" is the dominant demographic of users; get off your high horse. If so, this world is doomed, and within a generation will be ruled by hordes of ignorant retards. I can only hope you're exaggerating (well, I know you're exaggerating, the universities that matter still do vet their intake relatively rigorously). > Student loan debt is some of the hardest to escape debt in the world, I'm talking about the UK here. > In pretty much every basic job they expect to see a college degree or you're not getting a callback. Incorrect. For 9 out of 10 professions it is not true at all. > most of what is learned in pre-med has nothing to do with practicing medicine It is a filter. Doctors must conform to quite harsh endurance and resourcefulness requirements, and the more such filters applied - the better. This is not a profession for everyone (just like most other professions, really).
    - Thriptic 11y ago
      > If so, this world is doomed, and within a generation will be ruled by hordes of ignorant retards. I can only hope you're exaggerating (well, I know you're exaggerating, the universities that matter still do vet their intake relatively rigorously). By very definition most people go to universities or institutions that "don't matter" in your eyes. You can't rule out the majority of the population in a discussion about the nature of higher education just because it doesn't fit your narrative about what college should be. Moreover, to assume that everyone at top tier institutions is there or is trying hard because they are deeply passionate about learning is absolutely ridiculous. I am at a lab at MIT currently and interact with undergrads here all the time. The community has a HUGE problem with self-imposed stress over grades and course load to the point where individuals are committing suicide because they falsely believe that if they are not successful in college it will prevent them from being successful in the work place. Why do many people put themselves through this pressure? Because they know having the words MIT on their resume will get them a great job. > Incorrect. For 9 out of 10 professions it is not true at all. I don't know how they do things in the UK, but in the US employers want to see proof that you can do what you say you can do or that you are a serious worker when applying for a job. For a lot of industries, it's really hard to demonstrate this when applying for a first job because you have no relevant work experience. A relevant college degree (rightly or wrongly) serves as validation for employers. They feel safer taking a chance on employing you. Even having ANY college degree shows that someone has (theoretically) validated that you can work intelligently. The problem with not having a degree is that it's very difficult to gain demonstrable domain expertise in most fields without being employed (as you lack access to resources), and most people won't employ you until you can demonstrate some competence, leading to a situation where it's very difficult to get your foot in the door. That's why it's important to have a degree; it gets your foot in the door so you can gain experience. Most people in the US who do not have college degrees or technical certifications are working poorly paid jobs. Most people go to college so that they do not have to do that, not so that they can seek enlightenment. > It is a filter. Doctors must conform to quite harsh endurance and resourcefulness requirements, and the more such filters applied - the better. This is not a profession for everyone (just like most other professions, really) Putting someone through a 4 year arbitrary filter is a ridiculous practice which should stop. Unqualified students would wash out during the first year of medical school anyway; that should serve as the filter. Making someone rack up 80-120K in additional student debt just to go through a filtering process is absurd. A friend of mine is currently a resident and has 320K dollars of student loan debt. How is that justifiable?
kayfox 11y ago
I have always thought that at least part of that degree implies that you have the initiative and self-guidance to achieve things with little outside direction. I have noted a few employers who ask for a four year degree, but not in any specific field and this certainly indicates that employers are looking for people who know how to go out and achieve things without having to be told all the details of getting it done. Students expecting constant supervision really sets them up for failure in the real world as management typically does not have the time to supervise every aspect of their reports work. Also, the high achievers know how to go out and figure out and do things on their own.

sklogic 11y ago

> are solely there to get a piece of paper And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved. > and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). > College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, In most of the areas this is not true. In the other areas this is great, let's keep it this way as long as possible. I do not want to be butchered by a doctor who bypassed an assessment on their "performance on (sometimes quite arbitrary) classes" by simply paying more. If anything, this performance assessment must become more and more rigorous and tough. We need a grade deflation, not a grade inflation. EDIT: since the article is UK-specific, I am talking about the UK only. Student loans here would not cripple anyone financially.

mathieuh 11y ago
> And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved. Because (at least for me (and everyone I've spoken to)) university is completely useless. I haven't learnt anything in uni I hadn't already taught myself. I am 100% paying for the letters after my name.
- sklogic 11y ago
  So you wasted years of your time and years of the other people time simply to get some stupid letters to add to your CV? Sorry, I ran out of sympathy.
ceejayoz 11y ago
> Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). In the US, "ignoring" them results in a large build-up of interest while you defer payments, and the debt is one of the very few things that can't usually be discharged in bankruptcy.
Thriptic 11y ago
> And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? Because that "disgusting and lowly category" is the dominant demographic of users; get off your high horse. > Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). Student loan debt is some of the hardest to escape debt in the world, and if you don't get a solid job when you get out of college you can be absolutely crippled by it. > In most of the areas this is not true. In software development this is not true, but that's about it. In pretty much every basic job they expect to see a college degree or you're not getting a callback. Your physician example is also a poor one, as most of what is learned in pre-med has nothing to do with practicing medicine and is just an arbitrary barrier to entry to a professional school.
- sklogic 11y ago
  > Because that "disgusting and lowly category" is the dominant demographic of users; get off your high horse. If so, this world is doomed, and within a generation will be ruled by hordes of ignorant retards. I can only hope you're exaggerating (well, I know you're exaggerating, the universities that matter still do vet their intake relatively rigorously). > Student loan debt is some of the hardest to escape debt in the world, I'm talking about the UK here. > In pretty much every basic job they expect to see a college degree or you're not getting a callback. Incorrect. For 9 out of 10 professions it is not true at all. > most of what is learned in pre-med has nothing to do with practicing medicine It is a filter. Doctors must conform to quite harsh endurance and resourcefulness requirements, and the more such filters applied - the better. This is not a profession for everyone (just like most other professions, really).
  - Thriptic 11y ago
    > If so, this world is doomed, and within a generation will be ruled by hordes of ignorant retards. I can only hope you're exaggerating (well, I know you're exaggerating, the universities that matter still do vet their intake relatively rigorously). By very definition most people go to universities or institutions that "don't matter" in your eyes. You can't rule out the majority of the population in a discussion about the nature of higher education just because it doesn't fit your narrative about what college should be. Moreover, to assume that everyone at top tier institutions is there or is trying hard because they are deeply passionate about learning is absolutely ridiculous. I am at a lab at MIT currently and interact with undergrads here all the time. The community has a HUGE problem with self-imposed stress over grades and course load to the point where individuals are committing suicide because they falsely believe that if they are not successful in college it will prevent them from being successful in the work place. Why do many people put themselves through this pressure? Because they know having the words MIT on their resume will get them a great job. > Incorrect. For 9 out of 10 professions it is not true at all. I don't know how they do things in the UK, but in the US employers want to see proof that you can do what you say you can do or that you are a serious worker when applying for a job. For a lot of industries, it's really hard to demonstrate this when applying for a first job because you have no relevant work experience. A relevant college degree (rightly or wrongly) serves as validation for employers. They feel safer taking a chance on employing you. Even having ANY college degree shows that someone has (theoretically) validated that you can work intelligently. The problem with not having a degree is that it's very difficult to gain demonstrable domain expertise in most fields without being employed (as you lack access to resources), and most people won't employ you until you can demonstrate some competence, leading to a situation where it's very difficult to get your foot in the door. That's why it's important to have a degree; it gets your foot in the door so you can gain experience. Most people in the US who do not have college degrees or technical certifications are working poorly paid jobs. Most people go to college so that they do not have to do that, not so that they can seek enlightenment. > It is a filter. Doctors must conform to quite harsh endurance and resourcefulness requirements, and the more such filters applied - the better. This is not a profession for everyone (just like most other professions, really) Putting someone through a 4 year arbitrary filter is a ridiculous practice which should stop. Unqualified students would wash out during the first year of medical school anyway; that should serve as the filter. Making someone rack up 80-120K in additional student debt just to go through a filtering process is absurd. A friend of mine is currently a resident and has 320K dollars of student loan debt. How is that justifiable?

kayfox 11y ago

I have always thought that at least part of that degree implies that you have the initiative and self-guidance to achieve things with little outside direction. I have noted a few employers who ask for a four year degree, but not in any specific field and this certainly indicates that employers are looking for people who know how to go out and achieve things without having to be told all the details of getting it done. Students expecting constant supervision really sets them up for failure in the real world as management typically does not have the time to supervise every aspect of their reports work. Also, the high achievers know how to go out and figure out and do things on their own.